From husc-news.harvard.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!noc.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU!VIZNYUK Mon Aug 23 21:11:17 EDT 1993 Article: 23450 of soc.culture.soviet Relay-Version: VMS News - V6.0-3 14/03/90 VAX/VMS V5.5; site husc14.harvard.edu Path: husc-news.harvard.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!noc.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU!VIZNYUK Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Ukrainian nationalism. WWII period. Message-ID: <01H2329JRDGG9LVK32@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> From: VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (DRAGON FLY) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1993 12:25 EDT X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA29375; Mon, 23 Aug 93 09:25:49 -0700 X-Received: by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com; id AA01523; Mon, 23 Aug 93 09:25:47 -0700 X-Received: from MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU by MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (PMDF #12887) id<01H2329JRDGG9LVK32@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>; Mon, 23 Aug 1993 12:25 EDT X-To: SOC.CULTURE.SOVIET.USENET, SOC.CULTURE.UKRAINIAN.USENET,soc.culture.polish.usenet, soc.culture.jewish.usenet X-Envelope-To: soc.culture.jewish.usenet@decwrl.dec.COM, soc.culture.polish.usenet@decwrl.dec.COM,SOC.CULTURE.SOVIET.USENET@DECWRL.DEC.COM,SOC.CULTURE.UKRAINIAN.USENET@DECWRL.DEC.COM X-Vms-To: @SCS,@SCU,IN%"soc.culture.polish.usenet@decwrl.dec.com",IN%"soc.culture.jewish.usenet@decwrl.dec.com" Lines: 271 Xref: husc14 soc.culture.ukrainian:527 soc.culture.soviet:23450 soc.culture.polish:8413 soc.culture.jewish:51780 Status: RO From: Ted Sosnowski Subject: Freedomfighters from "Galytchina"?! The following posting is intended as an information to complement recent postings on this list pertaining to the Ukrainian nationalists during WW II The names of locations etc. are the ones used at the time (or their English equivalents) *************************************** REIGN OF TERROR Towards the end of 1942 a reign of terror as had been unknown since the Cossack onslaughts of the 17th and 18th centuries was unleashed against the Polish population, already decimated by the Soviet and Nazi occupants of the provinces of Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, PolandUs south eastern borderlands. Unhampered by the Nazi occupants, various Ukrainian nationalist factions (some of whom had collaborated with the Nazis) set upon the Polish inhabitants of those ethnically mixed territories, murdering tens of thousands of defenceless Polish civilians in an effort to eradicate or drive out the centuries old Polish element and lay the foundation for a Ukraine free of all minorities. The following is a reminder of that tragic and forgotten chapter of World War Two. When the Polish army was retreating from the advances of the Germans in September 1939, there were many instances of individual Polish soldiers being attacked and killed by hostile Ukrainians in this area. The situation worsened after the Soviets invaded eastern Poland on September 17, 1939. There was a massive assault on the Polish population, which at first resulted in the arrest of tens of thousands of Polish officials, military personnel and members of the educated classes. By the time the Nazis entered in June, 1941, the Soviets had deported to the Gulag over one million Polish men, women and children, many of whom were to perish in Siberian labour camps and in mass executions such as the one in Katyn, where some 14,500 Polish officers were executed in the spring of 1940. As British historian Norman Davies has pointed out, the Soviet occupants were assisted in this operation by local collaborators, who in the cities and larger towns were for the most part Jews, and in the countryside largely Ukrainians. A strange phenomenon indeed, considering that Soviets had killed off several million people in the artificial famine that plagued the Soviet Ukraine in the early 1930Us and were shipping off to the Gulag thousands of their Jewish citizens. The indiscriminate slaughter of the Polish and Jewish population of Volhynia and Eastern Galicia began with the retract of the Soviets and the entry of the Germans in June 1941. Even before the Nazi killing squads the Einsatzgruppen had organized the collaborators to assist in the execution of Jews, the slaughter of Jews and Poles had got underway. Martin Gilbert, the official biographer of Sir Winston Churchill and unequalled chronicler of the Holocaust, records many of these Jewish tragedies: At Lubieszow, Jews armed themselves with axes, hammers, iron bars and pitchforks, to await the arrival of local Ukrainians intent upon murder as soon as the Red Army withdrew, and before the Germans had arrived. The Ukrainians came, and were beaten off. But then, retreating to the nearby village of Lubiaz, they fell immediately upon the few isolated Jewish families living there. When, the following morning, the Jews of LubieszowUs self defence group reached Lubiaz, "they found the bodies of twenty children, women and men without heads, bellies ripped open, legs and arms hacked off". (The Holoucast, The Jewish Tragedy, page 157) In Lwow, based on death lists drawn up in advance by Ukrainian nationalists, executions of Poles by local Ukrainian nationalist groups abounded. At the headquarters of the Ukrainian police on Lozinski Street several thousands of Poles were imprisoned, tortured and murdered with unspeakable cruelty. (An eye witness account appeared in the London Dziennik Polski). Eminent Polish scholars from the centuries old John Casimir University were rounded up and executed by the Nazis. (see W Zelenski, "Jeszcze o zabojstwie Pierackiego i rozrachunkach polsko- ukrainskich", 46 Zeszyty Historyczne, 1978, pages 157-8) A similar fate befell the remnants of the Polish intelligentsia in Stanislawow, when in August 1941, the Ukrainian militia rounded up 120 Poles and handed them over to the German Gestapo for execution. (see J. Zielinski, "Stanislawow -1941", Tygodnik Powszechny, No. 49(567), December 6, 1959) The fate of the Jews was, if anything, worse: In Lvov, where several thousand Jews had been murdered (by the Ukrainians) at the beginning of July (1941), there had been a pause in the killing... But on July 25, the local Ukrainians launched the "Petlura action", a three day orgy of killing to "avenge" the murder of Simon Petlura by Shalom Schwarzbard, fifteen years before. Thousands of men and women were seized ostensibly for forced labour. Most were taken to a prison in the city, where they were beaten to death. Hundreds disappeared without trace. At least two thousand were killed. (M. Gilbert, The Holoucast, page 173) There was no effective opposition to stop or contain these excesses. Archbishop Metropolitan Szeptycki, the head of the Uniate (Ukrainian) Catholic Church, signed, together with four other Ukrainian nationalist leaders, a letter to Adolf Hitler stating: "We assure Your Excellency that the leading circles in the Ukraine are prepared to collaborate with Germany in a most close way, so as to conduct - with the united forces of the German and Ukrainian people - the struggle against the common enemy and to establish the New Order in the Ukraine and in all of Eastern Europe". (The full text appears in Gregor ProkopchukUs Der Metropolit). Little wonder that Gilbert records instances of Ukrainian priests inciting their parishioners against the Jews (The Holoucast, page 175). Polish sources provide examples of the same kind of attitude on the part of some Ukrainian clerics towards the slaughter of the Poles. However, it was not until late 1942 - when almost the entire Jewish population of this region had been exterminated for the most part by the Nazis - that the focus of the Ukrainian Nationalists shifted to the Poles. Their fate was sealed once large number of Ukrainians started to defect from the ranks of the Nazi apparatus of terror, disenchanted by the lack of sympathy on the part of the Germans for Ukrainian nationalist aspirations. What resulted for the Polish population has been summed up by American historian Jan T. Gross as follows: At the end of 1942, large detachments of Ukrainian auxiliary police, which had discharged their duties faithfully under the Germans, were ordered by the Ukrainian underground (OUN) to abandon their posts and to join or form partisan formations. Then the bloodbath began for the Polish population living in Wolyn (Volhynia) and in Eastern Malopolska. In several instances Ukrainian nationalists carried out extermination raids with the knowledge and sometimes the help, of local German commanders. What started as killings of single individuals and isolated Polish families developed into the systematic extermination of entire Polish hamlets. The Polish population either fled the area or set up armed encampments - sometimes ten to twenty thousand people strong - where it defended itself against Ukrainian nationalists. Although estimates are difficult to make, Ukrainian nationalists murdered sixty to eighty thousand Poles in eastern Poland between 1941 and 1944. With silent German blessing, Ukrainians were pushing out or openly exterminating the Poles living in the Western Ukraine.... Altogether, the Ukrainians were setting the stage for their ultimate takeover in the aftermath of the war. They were determined that after the war Poles would no longer be able to suppress Ukrainian nationalist claims... Accordingly, they began their campaign against the Poles before the war came to an end. (Polish Society Under German Occupation, pages 193-195) As the terror gained momentum and spread from Volhynia to Galicia and outward for the next three years Polish men, women and children, including the Catholic clergy, became the object of relentless attacks carried out by various Ukrainian factions with the exceptional savagery. Hundreds of accounts of these atrocities can be found in Polish and Jewish sources. Typical of the accounts of Jewish Holocaust survivors from Volhynia is the following by a teenager from Berezno: Ukrainian Bandera supporters attacked three Polish homesteads where Jews were being sheltered, killing twelve Jews and ten Poles... They ordered the occupants to lie down and then shot them with machine guns. They removed the victimsU shoes and any other valuable belongings, and then set fire to the house. (S. Wronski & M. Zwolakowa, Polacy Zydzi, 1939-1945, page 325. There are similar accounts from Jewish survivors from Tarnopol, Stanislawow and Lwow voivodships on pages 324-331.) Numerous recorded testimonies attesting to these Ukrainian atrocities appear in Komunikaty Towarzystwa im R. Dmowskiego. (see volume II, part I, pages 300-342). Many of these accounts describe especially brutal and sadistic massacres, which often entailed torture, mutilation and dismemberment of the victims, such as the murder of several hundred inhabitants of Kisielin in Volhynia after a church service in July 1943. The bodies of the women were mutilated with knives and axes: the heads of small children were smashed against the walls and floor of the church. Other Polish communities in Volhynia which were similarly wiped out in the spring and summer of 1943 include Janowa Dolina, Parosla, Huta Stepanska, Helenow, Zabary, Studzien, Woronczyn, Dabrowa, Dybryca, Borek, Lady, Omylanka, Haly, Siedlisko, Zakuscie, Mielnica Duza, Kamionka Nowa, and countless others. In many cases there were just a few survivors who escaped the massacre. Over one hundred eye witness accounts of similar tragedies in Eastern Galicia were compiled by the Latin rite Roman Catholic Archbishop of Lwow, Eugeniusz Baziak, and are summarized in Waclaw SzetelnickiUs "Zapommiany Iwowski bohater ks. St. Frankl". (pages 117-39): February 23-24, 1944. About 300 Ukrainian nationalists armed with stakes, axes and firearms, attacked the village of Berezowica Mala, Zbaraz county, killing 131 persons. Over 40 women and children were tied up and burned alive. March 12, 1944. Ukrainian SS and followers of Bandera assaulted the Dominican monastery in Podkamien, Brody county, where the local Polish population had taken shelter. Over 250 Poles were massacred in the monastery, including three elderly friars and a priest. Hundreds of Poles were murdered outside the monastery. Scores of Polish Catholic churches were destroyed or desecrated and dozens of Polish priests and nuns were killed. Mention of these atrocities can also be found in: Armia Krajowa w dokumentach, volume 3 (cited by W. Zelenski, 46 Zeszyty Historyczne, 1978, pages 180-1); Polskie Sily Zbrojne, volume 3, pages 527-9; Wladyslaw Pobog-MalinowskiUs Najnowsza historia polityczna Polski, volume 3, pages 325-30; Stefan KorbonskiUs The Polish Underground State: A guide to the Underground 1939-1945, pages 155 and 158-9; Jozef GarlinskiUs Poland in the Second World War, pages 209-10 and 220; Richard C. LukasU The Forgotten Holoucast (page 82). Holocaust historians and chronicles also attest to these atrocities: Between May and December 1942 more than 140,000 Volhynia Jews were murdered. Some, who had been given refuge in Polish homes, were murdered together with their Polish protectors in the spring of 1943, when of 300,000 Poles living in Volhynia, 40,000 were murdered by Ukrainian "bandits". In many villages, Poles and Jews fought together against the common foe. (Martin Gilbert, Atlas of the Holoucast, page 115) Notwithstanding the departure from the German ranks of Ukrainian nationalist elements, some Ukrainians continued to serve the Nazi occupants and took part in slaughter of Polish civilians, in some cases for aiding and sheltering the few remaining Jews. The following entries are taken from the chronicle of Poles murdered during the War for aiding Jews: February 1944. Nazis and Ukrainian fascists attacked and burned to the ground the Polish village of Huta Pieniacka, Brody county, whose inhabitants had sheltered and assisted Jews, who were hiding in the nearby forest. The village was surrounded so that no one could escape the burning inferno. March 23, 1944. As punishment for aiding Jews, Nazis and Ukrainian fascists set fire to the Polish village of Huta Werchobuska, Zloczow county, burning alive all the inhabitants who were found there. (Polacy Zydzi, 1939-1945, page 433; Yad Vashem Bulletin, April 1957, pages 19-20). The terror even spread westward beyond the Bug River. The chronicle of victims among the Polish Catholic clergy, under Nazi occupation lists four priests of the Lublin diocese who were murdered by Ukrainian nationalists. Many Ukrainians who refused to support these genocidal actions were also known to have fallen victim to the wrath of their countrymen. The number of Polish victims is difficult to estimate. Reliable sources place the toll at no less than 100,000. Some estimates run much higher. And under threat of death from Ukrainian nationalist factions, tens of thousands of Poles were forced to abandon their homes and flee westward into central Poland well before the Soviet advance into eastern Poland. But even these evacuees did not always find safety in their new home. Those that settled in the village of Bolestraszyce near Przemysl were set upon and murdered by Bandera supporters. (see Komunikaty Tow. im. R. Dmowskiego, vol. II, part I, page 341). Understandably, there were numerous desperate acts of self defence and even retaliation on the part of the Polish population, which took the lives of many Ukrainians. Polish sources readily acknowledge this. However, the fighting did not spread beyond the area affected by Ukrainian terrorist activities. The compact Lemko enclave wedged between a Polish population to the north and a Slovak population to the south, could have become during the war an easy target for Polish reprisals. It remained untouched, however, until after the war when Ukrainian nationalist factions, fleeing the Soviets, moved into that area and unleashed another reign of terror. The slaughter of the Polish civilian population of south eastern Poland cannot simply be explained away by reference to disparate national aims. There were intensely different aspirations on the part of the Polish majority and the Czech minority in Trans Olza (Zaolzie), yet that did not lead to any action on the part of the Poles to wipe out the Czech population. On the whole, Ukrainian historiography does not even acknowledge the wartime slaughter of the Polish population of this region. At best it maintains that the slaughter was a mutual one, as if the Volhynian Poles, who formed from 10 to 20% of the population of that provinceUs various counties prior to the massive Soviet deportations of 1940-41, constituted any danger to or would throw themselves at the large Ukrainian majority who were clearly in a favoured position and enjoyed the protection of the Nazi occupants. The fact that the Polish government in exile still regarded the area as an integral part of Poland cannot be seen as any sort of justification for the slaughter either. Nor can any justification be based on some principle of social or economic vindication. Surely, the fact that a Polish peasant owned on average 2 1/2 hectares more than a Ukrainian peasant is not cause to massacre the Polish population. Another attempt to justify the slaughter is based on historic wrongs on the part of Poland, particularly the brutal pacification carried out by the Pilsudski regime in the early 1930Us, which resulted in a harsh period of martial law in this region and possibly a few deaths. However, the Ukrainian terrorist activities which precipitated these events most certainly resulted in far more Polish victims and enormous loss to Polish property, a fact acknowledged by the League of Nations when, in 1932, it deliberated on this matter. The most ineffectual, and indeed woeful of the attempts to deny or justify the tragedy that befell the Polish and Jewish population of Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, is the claim that it was carried out by someone other than Ukrainians - often by the victims themselves - and that the Ukrainians, who are told were altogether blameless, are once more the victims of Soviet propaganda. Some Ukrainian sources even go so far as to say that it was the Polish and Jewish population who were collaborating with the Nazis. (...) ******************************************** The above text was sent to me by The Canadian Polish Research Institute, 288 Roncesvalles Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6R 2M4 as a xerox copy of an article printed some 5 years ago by Zwiazkowiec "The Alliancer" in Toronto Ted Sosnowski "representing my opinions only" From fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk Tue Mar 28 23:13:11 EST 1995 Article: 66186 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.soviet,relcom.politics Subject: Re: VISTI z ODESY Date: 29 Mar 1995 02:41:57 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3lahdl$h5i@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: beauty.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@beauty Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.ukrainian:12689 soc.culture.soviet:66186 Status: RO In article <1995Mar27.203744.6614@njitgw.njit.edu>, prof. Roman Voronka - Math. Dept. wrote: > >NOVYNY Z ODESY: > >ZUSYLLYAMU Odes'koho tovarystva >zhydivs'koyi kul'tury >imeni Note Lur'ye, >v misti vidkryto derzhavnu zahal'noosvitnu >zhydivs'ku shkolu. > >Dodatkovo do nykh, dity vchtymut' istoriyu ta kul'turu >zhydivs'koho narodu, joho literaturu, muzyku, >khoreohrafiyu, a takozh obydvi >zhydivs'ki movy - idysh ta ivryt. > >RV. Not that Ukrainian "language" is completely unpleasant for truly insightful Russian ear.. Could somebody post more "NOVYNY Z ODESY" on regular basis and _in Ukrainian only? I'm sure some former Odessa residents like darling Borya Veytsman would appreciate it. Also it would be a real fun to have these "NOVYNY" forwarded to INFO-RUSS. I could certainly do it myself but I'm afraid our friend Kaplan won't understand all the beauty of Ukrainian language. Cordially, Dragon From fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk Sun May 14 04:38:53 EDT 1995 Article: 72359 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.current-events.russia,k12.lang.russian,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.french,soc.culture.europe,relcom.politics,relcom.talk Subject: Great Russian victory Date: 9 May 1995 02:50:53 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 69 Expires: 9 May 2000 18:16:54 GMT Message-ID: <3omlad$9hs@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.russian:3996 alt.current-events.russia:5105 soc.culture.soviet:72359 soc.culture.ukrainian:14875 soc.culture.baltics:11591 soc.culture.nordic:29919 soc.culture.usa:42636 soc.culture.german:38274 soc.culture.french:37934 soc.culture.europe:14205 Status: RO May 9 - the day Russian army finished off the Nazi Germany. Great victory for Russia. We, Russians, invite everybody to celebrate it, even "allies": France: whole 40 days of "heroic fight" before spectacular capitulation in 1940, and then 5 shameful years of collaboration with Nazi. Even those few among French who actively resisted German occupation happened to be Russian emigrants who fled Bolshevism. "Great" Britain: did its best to induce Hitler to move East and attack Russia, and then when glorious Chemberlain miscalculated, was cawardly hiding behind Channel, while supplying Germans with military intelligence about Russia. USA: "heroically" fought and couldn't cope with 1 mln Japanese expeditionary corps on Pacific for 5 years, until the very moment when Russian Army destroyed the core of Japanese Army - 2 mln elite Japanese troops in just 2 weeks in summer 1945. in 1941-1945: We, Russians, had to fight alone simultaneously against: Germans, Italians, Romanians, Finns, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians, Crimean Tatars, Chechens - i.e. all the scum which either directly invaded Russia (Germans, Italians, Romanians, Finns, Hungarians), or were fighting on German side when Russian troops marched in (Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians), or who staged pro-Nazi uprisings (Crimean Tatars, Chechens). And at the same time Russians were forced to maintain large army on Far East to forestall possible Japanese attack, and no less troops in Central Asia to keep those 50 mln Muslims under control. Guess what? Today ABC declared the "turning point in WWII" to be "allied invasion of Normandy". There is no limit in the extent of lies Western propaganda can spread. Even school kid would be able to understand if only read more, that the "allied invasion" was more anti-Russian action, than anti-German. Russian Army had already sealed the fate of Nazi Germany by summer 1944, and was rolling toward Berlin, when our dear "allies" realized Russians would reach British Channel if to not stop them. Hence the staged "invasion of Normandy" - absolutely shameless anti-Russian action. We, Russians, shall not forget this. Next time Germans decide to kick the guts out of our "allies" French, or, say, from Poles, Russians should only enjoy, if not help them. Anyway, Congratulations, everybody. Vrag budet razbit, pobeda budet za nami. Cordially, Dragon From Dragon Fly Mon Jul 24 22:17:55 EDT 1995 Article: 79522 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!nt.colmicrosys.com!Darkstar.siberia.ru!sergei From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.russian,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.iranian,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human Subject: Re: Idiotic Claims Leveled by Aliev! Date: 24 Jul 1995 00:09:29 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3uuobp$bc1@nt.colmicrosys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mod169.colmicrosys.com Originator: sergei@Darkstar.siberia.ru Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.turkish:75825 soc.culture.russian:13602 talk.politics.soviet:11992 soc.culture.iranian:45233 talk.politics.mideast:26929 soc.culture.soviet:79522 soc.rights.human:17248 Status: RO In article <3uoaau$p0v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, LeilaKap wrote: >How totally Dashnak.."spare parts" indeed..At least you have admitted to >the barbaric tendencies of certain Armenians by this statement..Davidian >will be proud of you..Hell, he veven thinks that the Bosnians are the >agressors against Serbians. > >Leila As long as we are ready to see the insightful truth we should acknowledge Turks and Turko-Okrainians, and Muslims in general are not humans, but rather a dead end of evolution process. Most backward countries on Earth (after the Ukraine) are Muslim. To be a real moron, one has to be Muslim or Turko-Okrainian. Muslims feel frustrated by their backwardness, therefore they resort to terrorism, and most idiotic forms of terrorism. For each killed Jew, more than 30 Muslims get killed. For each killed Armenian 20 Turks get killed and their parts are traded to compensate for Armenian losses. That's how it should be. Serbs are doing even more excellent job. I admire Serbs. They are what real men should be. Bosnian Muslims are Muslims and it says everything. They are not willing and are unable to live in peace with superior nations, Serbs first of all. And they would be defeated and subjugated. We Russian are good guys too: for 1400 killed Russian soldiers more than 50,000 Chechens were killed and more would follow. Islam is not compatible with civilization. The progressive mankind should support Serbs. They are on the front fight against Islamic cancerous tumor on the surface of the Earth. Brought to you by: RAMA (Russian Anti-Muslim Association) Cordially, Dragon From Dragon Fly Mon Jul 24 22:17:55 EDT 1995 Article: 79522 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!nt.colmicrosys.com!Darkstar.siberia.ru!sergei From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.russian,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.iranian,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human Subject: Re: Idiotic Claims Leveled by Aliev! Date: 24 Jul 1995 00:09:29 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3uuobp$bc1@nt.colmicrosys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mod169.colmicrosys.com Originator: sergei@Darkstar.siberia.ru Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.turkish:75825 soc.culture.russian:13602 talk.politics.soviet:11992 soc.culture.iranian:45233 talk.politics.mideast:26929 soc.culture.soviet:79522 soc.rights.human:17248 Status: RO In article <3uoaau$p0v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, LeilaKap wrote: >How totally Dashnak.."spare parts" indeed..At least you have admitted to >the barbaric tendencies of certain Armenians by this statement..Davidian >will be proud of you..Hell, he veven thinks that the Bosnians are the >agressors against Serbians. > >Leila As long as we are ready to see the insightful truth we should acknowledge Turks and Turko-Okrainians, and Muslims in general are not humans, but rather a dead end of evolution process. Most backward countries on Earth (after the Ukraine) are Muslim. To be a real moron, one has to be Muslim or Turko-Okrainian. Muslims feel frustrated by their backwardness, therefore they resort to terrorism, and most idiotic forms of terrorism. For each killed Jew, more than 30 Muslims get killed. For each killed Armenian 20 Turks get killed and their parts are traded to compensate for Armenian losses. That's how it should be. Serbs are doing even more excellent job. I admire Serbs. They are what real men should be. Bosnian Muslims are Muslims and it says everything. They are not willing and are unable to live in peace with superior nations, Serbs first of all. And they would be defeated and subjugated. We Russian are good guys too: for 1400 killed Russian soldiers more than 50,000 Chechens were killed and more would follow. Islam is not compatible with civilization. The progressive mankind should support Serbs. They are on the front fight against Islamic cancerous tumor on the surface of the Earth. Brought to you by: RAMA (Russian Anti-Muslim Association) Cordially, Dragon From fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!wupost!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!metaphor.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!uunet.uu.net!math.harvard.edu!fly!dragon Wed Nov 30 21:16:54 EST 1994 Article: 47219 of soc.culture.soviet Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!wupost!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!metaphor.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!uunet.uu.net!math.harvard.edu!fly!dragon From: dragon@fly.harvard.edu (Dragon Fly) Subject: Who makes PC clishes for Western media? Message-ID: <4098uyfh@fly.harvard.edu> Sender: news@fly.harvard.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: fly.harvard.edu Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 03:18:13 GMT Lines: 120 Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.baltics:7140 soc.culture.romanian:9030 soc.culture.ukrainian:7873 soc.culture.soviet:47219 talk.politics.soviet:7504 soc.culture.nordic:21095 soc.culture.europe:8292 Status: RO Content-Length: 5256 I shall explain below the insightful question in Subj. Me as everybody knows happen to read sometimes some American and non-American western and non-western newspapers and magfazines. Yeeah, look here: from Wall Streeet Journal (some short article about Rumania): "..Since the end of Soviet domination Romania made a significant progress on the path of economic reform and democratization.." further on: "..Romanians look to the West for help in implementing their reform program.." and then: "..Romanians link with West their hopes for economic revival.." from Economist (month-old issue, read yesterday in the library) "..Romanian success contrasts sharply with Russia's failures in economy and instability in politics.." from NYT : "..Today, four years since Romania broke with the Soviet block, the signs of change are everywhere on the streets of Bucharest... Many smiling faces.. while on the gloomy streets of Moscow... " etc, etc. It doesn't suprises me (not anymore) that _American media is so uniform and unanimous on _every more or less important issue like e.g. Bosnia, Middle East, that even Brezhnev could envy such a control over media outlets. What makes me puke is how cheap all that stuff is. You can just substitute for "Romania" some other names like e.g. "Estonia", "Latvia", "Albania" and you get yet another typical article about respective country. Not that it matters that Romania was not in "Soviet block" or "under Soviet-Russian control" for the last 40 or so years. Or that late Rumanian genius Ceucescu was the best friend of all Western leaders, and even British Queen. And of course nobody (conspicuously, eh?) mentions here about crowds of "liberated from Soviet oppression" Rumanians running across the border into Hungary,Poland,Russia, swarming railway stations from StPeterburg to Warsaw. Not that it's challenging for the insightful observer to elaborate on the "successes of Romanian economy". I guess the very fact that their fellow Rumanians across the border in Moldova (one of the poorest x-Soviet republics, "still under Russian foot") cheerfully spit on their Western "compatriots" tells more. Or take e.g. another "success story" - Estonia (or Albania). The Western media loudly reported about Estonia as "first x-Soviet republic to achieve economic growth", "democratic Estonia heading rapidly toward economic prosperity" (you may substitute here "Albania" to the same effect) again "in contrast to gloomy picture of Russian economy", etc, etc. Nobody mentions that in 1991-1993 Estonia had >40% drop in GDP _annually, perhaps toward absolute zero. Couldn't their this year's "growth" be accounted for by just a couple of extra pigs the Estonians managed to grew (with Finnish help)? Or is it possible for a newly independent "prosperous" country like Estonia to have [relatively] huge foreign trade deficit (and Estonia does have it, since Estonians seem unable to produce anything worth to export), unless _someone _pays for Estonia? I guess to buy something from abroad without selling abroad the adequate amount is possible only if (correct me if I'm wrong): 1. You have accumulated earlier some wealth, which you can live off [only for some time of course]. Like e.g. USA. 2. You get loans and live in debt 3. Somebody pays for you Well, Estonia (or Latvia for that matter) didn't have any wealth since they were "liberated" by join efforts of Yeltsin and Lithuanians. Well, Estonia (or Latvia for that matter) do get some loans, but probably not enough to exist. So the main option is the third one: someone is willing to feed and cloth Estonians/Latvians _for free, much in the same way as US does with Israel. My poor mother-in-law (unfinished Cambridge degree :-) living in Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg, Russia, complains often nowdays: "these Lithuanian peddlers don't let me pass.. just like Gypsies...." Poor women talks about "liberated Lithuanians" who are coming to nearest Russian city to trade some stuff and earn some rubles. "Hard" litas are not accepted. God excuses her for a bit of racism.. ~50,000 people flee Estonia annually. Out of 2mln population. Even Rumanians do not move out with such a haste. Yeah, some lucky ones made it to the West and are now the ardent defenders of Baltic independence, posting from Sweden/Germany/US. Others are quitely living somewhere in central Russian regions exaserbating unemployment there. Estonia loudly poses territorial claims to Russia, much in the same vein as Rumania to everybody else. In 1992 there was a referendum in the "disputed" regions (parts of Russia). Russia as truly democratic country allows her citizens to decide where to live. The local Estonian and Russian population overwhelmingly voted in favor of staying in Russia. However. When the population of Narva (currently occupied by Estonia) decided to hold the similar referendum in 1993, "democratic" Estonian government hastily declared the referendum "unconstitutional" and banned it. Well, may the insightful observer suggest that it was probably because Estonian government knew too well the likely outcome? Why Latvian and Estonia governments banned several Russian-language newpapers? Well, they were "subversive". I'm sure they were.. Cordially, Dragon From fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!metaphor.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!uunet.uu.net!math.harvard.edu!fly!dragon Wed Dec 7 19:00:07 EST 1994 Article: 48283 of soc.culture.soviet Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.soviet,relcom.politics Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!metaphor.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!uunet.uu.net!math.harvard.edu!fly!dragon From: dragon@fly.harvard.edu (Dragon Fly) Subject: Anthology of mysterious events. Part 3. Message-ID: <209hj2@fly.harvard.edu> Sender: news@fly.harvard.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: fly.harvard.edu Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 01:46:02 GMT Lines: 102 Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.ukrainian:8259 soc.culture.soviet:48283 Status: RO Content-Length: 3915 This is my favorite. Turko-Okrainians are really entertaining sometimes.. Enjoy. --------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 11:06:01 +0930 From: mafjf Subject: RE: First Amendment, legality, and the Internet In-reply-to: <9309041855.AA18560@lux.levels.unisa.edu.au> from "Boris A. Veytsman" at Sep 4, 93 02:55:00 pm In reply to Boris, > > ..... I remember that in my University there were a > rule for enter exams: the most privileged were Ukrainian > abiturients of peasant origin, then Russian ones, and > Jews were heavily discriminated. In other places Russian > were priviliged with respect to Ukrainians, and again, Jews > were discriminated. The aim of this system was simple: > it created tensions which required Party as the arbiter. > Jews, referring to the old Soviet system persistently scream discrimination and anti-semitism. If you look at their representation in the old soviet party, the ministries, academia, medicine and other professions it is a bit hard to swallow. Frank Jaroslaw Fursenko U-SA(university of South Australia) --------------- Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 11:20:41 +0930 From: mafjf Subject: RE: First Amendment, legality, and the Internet In-reply-to: <9309051604.AA02001@lux.levels.unisa.edu.au> from "DRAGON FLY" at Sep 5, 93 12:02:33 pm In reply to Dragon Fly, > > Why Okrainian commies managed to reduce Okrainians to > starvation? Ask Comrade Kravchuk. He is old enough. > Maybe he took part in that feast himself. > Viznjuk, it is apalling that you as a Jew should persistently made fun of the Ukrainian famine particularly as you scream hysterically whenever any mention (no matter how indirect) is made of anything connected with Nazi Germany. Frank Jaroslaw Fursenko U-SA(University of South Australia) ------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 16:04:41 +0930 From: mafjf Subject: RE: First Amendment, legality, and the Internet In-reply-to: <9309060247.AA24726@lux.levels.unisa.edu.au> from "Boris A. Veytsman" at Sep 5, 93 10:47:00 pm In reply to Boris, > > There is no need for me to argue with this guy. The only person proper to > talk with Nazists is, as it was determined by the Nurenberg trial, a hangman > with a good length of rope. > I am appalled at your response and how quickly you and your friends have co-ordinated your disgusting attempts to label me as a "Nazist". > > This guy just corroborates my sad observance: how nice and polite Ukrainian > Nationalists may be, there is always a lurking Anti-Semit among them. > This is outrageous. I suppose it is all-right for Jews like Viznjuk, Stetsenko and yourself to post masses of vitriolically anti-Ukrainian slander and then for you to scream anti-semite whenever someone says enough is enough. Frank Jaroslaw Fursenko U-SA(University of South Australia) ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1993 10:51:28 +0930 From: mafjf Subject: RE: your mail In-reply-to: <9309070045.AA28485@lux.levels.unisa.edu.au> from "David Marples" at Sep 6, 93 02:09:52 pm In reply to David Marples, > > In short, the goal was to provoke, and Frank responded. > Clearly he was most incensed at the callous remarks by > Vizhnyuk on the Famine. Racism is racism, no matter which > group is the subject. .................................... > You are more or less correct but it goes a little further than that. The most vitriolic and vehemently anti-Ukrainian slander comes from 3 Jews (Viznjuk, Stetsenko and Veytsman). The zeal and eagerness with which they are ready to do the dirty work for Russia is appalling. Yet they are very quick to tar you with an "SS or Nazi" label and to scream "anti-semitism" whenever anyone challenges their real motivation. Frank Jaroslaw Fursenko ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Dragon Fly Thu Feb 15 17:21:16 EST 1996 Article: 96144 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!news.dfci.harvard.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.soviet,relcom.politics,alt.current-events.russia,alt.current-events.ukraine Subject: Re: Ukrainian Mythology Date: 15 Feb 1996 00:17:03 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4ftu1v$n40@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.ukrainian:25341 soc.culture.russian:41563 soc.culture.baltics:17254 soc.culture.soviet:96144 alt.current-events.russia:11627 alt.current-events.ukraine:4076 In article <31216FE0.1B48@ezdial.com>, Dan K. wrote: > >You are right Zenon and equally the Romanians can not look to Rome for >their roots even though they derive their name from thence. you are ignorant as only the Ukrainian can be ignorant. "Romanian" (Rumanian) comes not from "Roman" but from "Roma" (Gypsy). So your parallel is false. Ukrainians cannot claim to have anything related Rus' for many reasons, main of which are: 1. The very term "Ukrainian" means "the one living on the outskirts" which Russians (including those in Kiev Rus') used to call nomadic Turkic tribesmen living on the outskirts of Rus'. This proves that Ukrainians, in fact, are something opposite to inhabitants of Kiev Rus'. 2. While even though theoretically the Ukrainians can pretend on Kiev Rus' heritage, they cannot even theoretically do the same with Suzdal Rus', Vladimir Rus', Novgorod Rus' which were if not older than more powerfull and prosperous than Kiev (just to recall that both Princes of Novgorod and Suzdal used fuck the shit out of Kiev's rulers on a regular basis). I doubt that even such a Tchurka dickhead as you would dare to dispute that Novgorod, Sizdal, Vladimir Rus(es) clearly belong to Russia in all senses. 3. There is no evidence of any Ukrainian tracing his/her roots to any of the nobles of Kiev Rus' while there are/were many Russians who could do it. Just to mention late Czar Ivan IV who was (last) direct descendant of Rurik (one of the first rulers of Kiev). 4. And finally, the very appearance of Ukrainians tells their Turkic origins. Just take a look at that old paintings which depict Ukrainians which absolutely the same as Turks. There is no reason for Ukrainians to continue bluffing about them being "more original" Russians than Russians are. Ukrainians don't have neither their own culture nor history, nor any achievements. Their country is in deepest shit among all x-Soviet republics except probably Tajikistan, but even then Tajiks are worse off 'cause they have civil war. You the Ukrainians should quietly swallow it and shut the fuck up, Tchurkas. You are miserable pathetic crowd of slaves worth only to be subjugated, or starved to death. Cordially, Dragon From Dragon Fly Thu Feb 22 15:50:05 EST 1996 Article: 96599 of soc.culture.soviet Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.ukrainian,alt.current-events.russia,soc.culture.baltics Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.russian.moderated - one note Date: 22 Feb 1996 02:58:28 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 54 Message-ID: <4ggm4k$bjv@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu news.groups:106944 soc.culture.soviet:96599 soc.culture.russian:42362 soc.culture.ukrainian:25663 alt.current-events.russia:11792 soc.culture.baltics:17369 In article <4ggc66$88d@mercury.galstar.com>, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > >* dmitri gusev (dmiguse@cs.indiana.edu) wrote: > >Sorry for quoting so much, but I feel that I need to. I think that message >by Mr. Gusev was particularly stupid. Gusev is Tchurka so what did you expect? >Mr. Viznyuk IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT Please note: as always! However my support for soc.culture.r.m. does not extend to purebred Sovok Tchurka Vorobieff and halfbred Sovok Chudov being the moderators of proposed s.c.r.m. I think these two issues (i.e. the creation of s.c.r.m. and who gonna be the moderators) should be separated and votes should be held separately. I nominate Mr.Iatskovsky for moderator of s.c.r.m. And I suggest Mr.Iatskovsky to re-write the proposed charter of s.c.r.m. to conform to Russian standards. The need for this is transparent. As it stands the current charter and moderation rules would make sure all postings from teterins, gusevs, sovokins, kachurkins et similar (i.e. the postings with no signs of content or intelligence) would pass. Really, once the posting contains no flames, no "racism", no "anti-Semitism", no sense, and no reason there is no clause in current charter which will allow moderator to filter it out. However Mr.Iatskovsky can improve the charter to include the simple rule which will make s.c.r.m. really great newgroup. Namely the suggested rule is: All postings from Tchurkas should be banned. =========================================== Now, the forthcoming World Tchurka Catalog will contain list and classification of Tchurkas which the moderators of s.c.r.m can use to filter out Tchurka postings. Stay tuned. Cordially, Dragon From Dragon Fly Sun Feb 25 02:57:29 EST 1996 Article: 42603 of soc.culture.russian Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,alt.current-events.russia,alt.current-events.ukraine,relcom.politics Subject: Re: HELP: Ukrainian per capita income Date: 22 Feb 1996 22:32:18 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4giqti$l5c@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.ukrainian:25753 soc.culture.russian:42603 alt.current-events.russia:11825 alt.current-events.ukraine:4186 In article , Gorilka wrote: >In article <4gg590$9ae@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, >aluchin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alexander Luchin) wrote: > >> In article <4g5q30$15ps@news.missouri.edu>, Andriy Samoilovich >> wrote: >> >> > Taras Fisun wrote: >> > Ukraine never was and never will be russian dependency. >> Unfortunately, he's right here, now Ukraine depends on russian oil and >gas, not >> only because it's the cheapest so far (including transportation- it's much >> cheaper to transport oil through pipelines, than by sea), but also because >> Russia seems to be istantly forgiving ukrainian debt. > >I am afraid you may be wrong here. Nikto ne zabit i nichto ne zabyto. >Ukrainian debt is not written off but rather payments are extended (unlike >situation with, say, Byelorus'). Interesting is that one of the payment >options offered by Chernomyrdin is with shares of some most profitable >ukrainian enterprises. If Ukraine accepts these terms, it will become de >facto russian dependancy sooner or later. >It seems that Ukraine has two options: > >1. Keep confronting Russia and destroy it's own economy that would >eventually lead to the status of de facto colony (most likely, Russian) > >2. Turn to closer economical cooperation and other ties with Russia that >would help both countries to overcome current economical hardships. > >Both ways, Ukrainian future is with Russia and not with ruaway (or >homebred) natzi. > >Gorilka Why won't you Okrainian Tchurkas crawl back where you belong. We Russians don't need you, even if all you Tchurkas fall on your knees. Yes, Russian government keeps extending Ukrainian debt. Yes, Russian government closes its eyes on Ukrainians stealing gas from pipelines. Yes, Russian government allows Ukrainian "chikanos" go and work in Russia (even though for 1/3 of Russian salaries), even though Russia has unemployment problem. Still - It's CHEAPER than to continue feeding 50 mlns of you Okrainian Tchurkas as we Russians did during Soviet times. As every sane person understands, the presence of the Ukraine and other (Transcaucasian, Central Asian) shitholes in Russian economic sphere has proven to be the greatest disaster for Russian culture and economy (maybe second only to Bolshevik take-over). There is no way we Russians would allow you Tchurkas to sit on our back once again. Cordially, Dragon From Dragon Fly Tue Feb 27 03:08:04 EST 1996 Article: 42778 of soc.culture.russian Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!sviznyuk From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.baltics,alt.current-events.russia Subject: Re: Man triumphs over machine in historic chess contest Date: 25 Feb 1996 17:03:21 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 117 Message-ID: <4gq4op$jbl@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Originator: sviznyuk@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.russian:42778 soc.culture.baltics:17445 alt.current-events.russia:11869 In article , Dan Korolev wrote: >Wow, Kasparov becomes the first "purebred sovok" whom Dragon Fly forgets to insult. Waht's You are moron. Plain and unflavored. Kasparov is not purebred Sovok. His mother is Armenian, which already formally and factually excludes him from The Herd. Besides, Karparov on multiple ocasions underscored he considers himself Russian. I too consider him Russian. That's quite enough already. >wrong, Fly? Getting senile? If you accused Brodsky of receiving his Nobel Prize in >the form of foodstamps, maybe you could have accused Kasparov of getting his >Championship prize money also in the form of foodstamps? That's quite ridiculous to compare Kasparov who alone makes more money than all purebred Sovok emigres in US combined, with some mediocre pathetic miserable exile like Brodsky whose Nobel Prize is quite worth those of Nelson Mandela's Gorby's, and Yassir Arafat's. Cordially, Dragon > >Dragon Fly writes: > >>> >>> PHILADELPHIA (Reuter) - Garry Kasparov triumphed over the >>>IBM supercomputer Deep Blue Saturday, showing that the massive >>>calculating power of a machine was not yet ready to beat the >>>best of human brains in a classical chess match. >>> The Russian chess champion won the sixth and final game of >>>the historic match to beat Deep Blue by four points to two after >>>three wins, two draws and a stunning win for the computer >>>program in game one a week ago. >>> ``I did not expect that it would be that tough,'' Kasparov >>>told a news conference. ``Probably I was very lucky to lose game >>>one because that was the best warning, otherwise a disaster >>>could have happened later.'' >>> Deep Blue made chess history by becoming the first computer >>>program to beat a reigning world champion in classical chess, in >>>which players have hours to plan strategies. Grandmasters >>>including Kasparov have lost to computers in games played at a >>>much faster rate. >>> Kasparov, who said before the contest that he was defending >>>humans against the onslaught of computers, later stood in front >>>of hundreds of cheering spectators, his arms held aloft and >>>smiling in triumph. >>> He told reporters he had learned even more about the game of >>>chess during the match against a computer that calculates 50 >>>billion positions within three minutes. He also said he would >>>take up the challenge again in future. >>> ``I think the games will be analyzed both by chess players >>>and scientists because we know a lot now about the way it thinks >>>in chess and other things,'' he said. ``I thought I saw >>>something similar to an artificial intellect. What I do by just >>>feeling right or wrong, the machine finds by making these >>>billions and billions of calculations.'' >>> With one point awarded for a win and a 1/2 point for a draw, >>>Kasparov needed only a draw with the white pieces in the sixth >>>and final game to collect the $400,000 winner's prize from the >>>sponsors, the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM). The IBM >>>team was awarded $100,000. >>> Playing with the advantage of the first move against Deep >>>Blue's Slav defense, Kasparov slowly built a better position in >>>the last game. >>> ``Garry just strangled the computer strategically,'' said >>>grandmaster Yasser Seirawan, who also gave commentary for 600 >>>paying spectators at the Philadelphia convention center. ``And >>>it worked like a charm.'' >>> The programmers of the powerful calculating machine resigned >>>on the 43rd move after three hours and 45 minutes at the >>>chessboard. >>> Kasparov recovered from the game one loss by winning the >>>second game. The next two games were drawn and the grandmaster >>>won the fifth game Friday. >>> The match in Philadelphia between the world's strongest >>>player and the strongest chess machine ever built was part >>>scientific project on how computers can solve complex problems >>>and part showdown between man and machine. >>> IBM team leader Dr C.J. Tan praised Kasparov for taking on >>>the computer that scientists spent six years developing. >>> ``Our goal was to test out a system and learn from this >>>experience and take this back with us so we can continue to >>>advance our research in computing technology in general,'' Tan >>>said. >>> About 600 paying spectators watched the final game on giant >>>video screens in a hall at the Pennsylvania Convention Center. >>>IBM said millions more around the world had kept track of the >>>match on the Internet website http://www.chess.ibm.park.org. >>> The match was one of the events at this week's ACM >>>convention celebrating the development of the first computer, >>>known by its acronym ENIAC, at the University of Pennsylvania 50 >>>years ago. >>> IBM scientists developed a processor chip specifically for >>>chess calculations in its high-performance Deep Blue computer. >>>Its main strength is its computing power that enables it to >>>search more deeply on the ``tree'' of possible moves and more >>>quickly than any previous program. >>>-- >>>This is the NEW RELEASE of the ClariNet e.News! If you notice any >>>problems with the new edition, please mail us at editor@clari.net and >>>let us know. Thanks! More information can be found on our web site at >>>http://www.clari.net/ or in clari.net.announce. >>> > > From dfly@infinet.com Wed Feb 28 01:10:56 EST 1996 Article: 42004 of soc.culture.russian Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news4.ner.bbnplanet.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!Darkstar.siberia.ru!sergei From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: alt.current-events.ukraine,soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.polish,alt.current-events.russia,relcom.politics,ukr.politics Subject: Re: 6/10 news Date: 18 Feb 1996 04:37:42 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4g6aem$eue@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cmh-p046.infinet.com Originator: sergei@Darkstar.siberia.ru Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu alt.current-events.ukraine:4126 soc.culture.ukrainian:25515 soc.culture.russian:42004 talk.politics.soviet:14853 soc.culture.polish:38744 alt.current-events.russia:11704 From: vsoro00@mik.uky.edu (B.I.COBOKIH): > > - the total collapse of Ukrainian economy is much more disastrous > for Russian and Byelorussian economies than for the economies of > Western Europe because: > > 1) The scale of integration in the former USSR; > > 2) The fact that Ukrainian market is of much more interest to Russia > than for Western Europe; Not applicable. The largest trade partners of Russia are Germany, Italy, and China. Turko-Okraine is hardly able to present any interest for Russia, except perhaps as a dump or nuclear test site. Most unpleasant thing about Okraine is that Russia very soon would have to spend billions of $$$ to install effective border control with Okraine to prevent illegal immigration of Turko-Okrainians into Russia. > - unlike the population in Western Europe, > many people in Russia feel blood connection to Okrainian people, and Many people in Russia feel blood connection with ethnic Russians on the Okraine who are suffering under Turko-Okrainian rule. Some people in Russia like e.g. Chukchi,Bashkirs,Tatars _may_ feel blood connection with Turko-Okrainians (Kravchukchi). Some people on the Far East may feel blood connection with American Indians. Conclusion: Russia should stay away from the Okraine. > they will be ready to help; I believe not many share the opinions > expressed by the Viznjuk Inc: "you voted for independence, so eat it > now". Majority are willing to help; Majority of Russians would rather help starving Somalis. Those at least do not steal gas and oil from Russian pipelines, and do not grab at nukes. Cordially, Dragon From dfly@infinet.com Wed Feb 28 01:11:45 EST 1996 Article: 42005 of soc.culture.russian Path: fas-news.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news4.ner.bbnplanet.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!Darkstar.siberia.ru!sergei From: Dragon Fly Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,alt.current-events.russia,alt.current-events.ukraine Subject: Re: the Ukraine and Crimea Date: 18 Feb 1996 04:17:50 GMT Organization: Black Hole Peripherals Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4g699e$erf@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cmh-p046.infinet.com Originator: sergei@Darkstar.siberia.ru Xref: fas-news.harvard.edu soc.culture.ukrainian:25516 soc.culture.russian:42005 alt.current-events.russia:11705 alt.current-events.ukraine:4127 From: peilma@ac.wfu.edu (Michael Peil) : >: KOPOBbEB@newcom.kiae.su wrote: > >: > 2. there is no valid reason why should Russians in Crimea be >: > forced to live under Turko-Okrainians, and not to execise >: > the same right for self-determination which allowed Ukrainians >: > to secceed from xUSSR (thus saving Russians from their presence). > > "Turko-Okrainians?" Could someone fill me in on the chapter of > early ethnic history I'm missing? I mean, even "Turko-Ukrainian?" Actually "ukrainian" is just a misspelling of Russian "okrainian" (from "okraina" which means "outskirts", shithole in other words). Russians in Kiev, Suzdal, Vladimir Rus[es] used to call "okrainians" the nomadic Turkish tribes who settled on the territory of present-day Okraina ("The Ukraine" in English) in 8-10th centuries. Most numerous of those Turkish tribes were Khazars, Pechenegs, Polovets. You may check the articles "Pechenegs" and "Khazars" in Encyclopedia Britannica. Later those Turko-Okrainians were forcefully converted to [Orthodox] Christianity by Russians (on the north and east) and to Papism by Poles on the west. Later as well, Russian imperial and even later - Soviet communist propaganda tried to make an air that "ukrainians" are Slavic people close to Russians to justify the "union" between Turko-Okraine and Russia. In fact, "ukrainians" are Turks who are no closer to Russians then Albanians. Cordially, Dragon