To: cloud-zero@zeus.clas.suffolk.edu (Cloud Zero)
From: nthuleen@students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen)
Subject: Re: Hello


Booti Quake, or crackboy, or jason (I think they're all the same) wrote:

   > I want to ask it here because rmi is getting more and more worthless.

Meaning it was different, at some point?  :)

   > I was just curious as to what would be a good first time purchase
   > for Death In June. In other words, what would be the best album
   > they have done.

Oh, goodness, how can you answer a question like that?  I mean, I'm not
saying ALL Death in June albums are wonderful, certainly there's a ranking,
but I can't recommend just ONE!  Eeeessh.  And without even knowing what
other music you like, apart from LPD of course?  Well, let's see.  I don't
have all of them ("only" eight!) but from those I do have, I can definitely
recommend "The Corn Years."  It's a nice sampling of their earlier
('86-'87) work, with mostly folk-ish songs interspersed with some more
experimental numbers (although I won't stand by "experimental" as the
operative word, really).  Besides, it has a few of my all-time favorite DiJ
tracks, such as "Europa: The Gates of Heaven" and "Break the Black Ice."
And Rose McDowell and John Balance both do guest vocals, *swoon*.

The "new" album (last year's, called "Rose Clouds of Holocaust") is also
*very* good, but incredibly ALL the same sound, no variation at all, and
therefore if you don't like the sound, you won't like anything on the
album.  "But What Ends When the Symbols Shatter?" is a bit more varied, but
arguably not as "good."  If you're not scared off by the Nazi imagery and
blatant Aryan quotes and gothic vocals, well, "The Guilty Have No Past" is
definitely a classic, but I'd hardly recommend it for the faint of heart --
same with "The Cathedral of Tears," which is even darker, if that's
possible.

Hope that helps ... if you could give a little more indication of what you
might be interested in, others might have more to suggest ...

- Nancy.
(who thinks that she's answering far too many questions these days.)



From: Mephist568@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Booring Nazis


It is unfortunate.  Some people cynically use this term to stop all
discussion when confronted with new ideas that they find hard to digest.  It
is amazing.  When the term "Nazi" is used to describe people as diverse as
Patrick Buchannan, Blood Axis, Death in June, and indeed, even Sadam
Hussein!!  It has really become over used and meaningless.  Unless, it is
used as just a synonym for evil.  In which case, Blood Axis, Death in June,
and Boyd Rice would probably wear this term with pride.



Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:15:17 -0500
From: wkgdream@bway.net (waking dream)
Subject: blood axis interview in the heretic


as promised, here is the scanned and (quickly) corrected interview from the
heretic.  i think we can safely say blood axis is on-topic, through
michael's past connections with boyd rice and douglas pearce.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

from the heretic no.10, oct 1994

BLO0D AXIS
AN INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL MOYNIHAN

HERETIC: What were the formative influences on your ideology?

M.M.: Tracing the formative influences is difficult. I don't believe I ever
went through any sort of radical "transformation" or adopted a pre-ordained
worldview. I was never completely at ease with most of my schoolmates and
considered myself an outsider. I always had a natural inclination to pursue
knowledge on my own, as well as an interest in music and culture, history,
etc., that was far beyond most of the people I
knew. I had a small core of friends who were in some ways similar, and were
troublemakers of a sort, but who still were not aware of many of the things
I involved myself in. At a young age I was interested in extreme politics -
I subscribed to a revolutionary communist paper at age 14 or so, and not
long after that I sent away for information from the NSDAP-AO. I can recall
my mother complaining since my earliest years that I was completely
intolerant towards others, and often my schoolteachers were paranoid that I
was secretly organizing rebellions behind the scenes. But really, I can't
think of any specific influences. Generally it's an ongoing process of one
thing leading to another, and I'm pretty tenacious at tracking concepts
down to either their origins and/or their logical conclusions.

HERETIC: What were your involvements prior to Blood Axis and Storm Productions?

M.M.: Before Blood Axis and Storm I had a project called Coup De Grace,
which was a music group as well as a publisher/distributor. I recorded a
few tapes and did one small tour of concerts in northern Europe in 1987. In
1988, at age 18, I published an edition of Nietzsche's Der Antichrist,
illustrated by Trevor Brown.I was also briefly involved in a few other
music qrouDs, and organized and played in the one European concert of the
US techno-skin band Slave State, which took place in August of 1988.

HERETIC: How did Blood Axis come about? What does the name itself imply?
Was the "Axis" part of it chosen at least in part to imply Fascism? What's
the background of its emblem the Gothic Cross, and why did you select that?
What the significance of the Mithraic cult for Blood Axis?

M.M.: Blood Axis came about as I wanted to create an entity that would more
powerfully and specifically represent my beliefs and goals. It was formed
in 1989, although the idea had been gestating for much longer than that.
the name to me represents life itself: blood, violence, sex, heredity, and
an undefinable mythic spiritual quality as well. Of course I was well aware
of the fascist connotation of the word "axis", and accepted this willing.
In choosing the symbol for the project, the kruckenkreuz seemed appropriate
for many reasons. I wanted something simple and distinct, visually
representing an axis or unity. Additionally, it contains other powerful
symbols within its form: sunwheels revolving either direction, four Thor's
hammers, etc. Of course the symbol also has Christian connections (although
it's much older than that), which I think add another (not necessarily
negative, in a pragmatic sense) element to its mythical resonance. The cult
of Mithras was something I discovered while doing original research for
Blood Axis. The more I read the more fascinated I became. The blood
symbolism in Mithraism is especially strong, as is the pagan/anti-Christian
foundation, and it can be related closely to something like Asatru (which I
am also involved with), for both are native Indo-European warrior
religions.

HERETIC: Is Blood Axis intended solely as a music endeavour, or do you have
plans for broadening it into, for e.g., a movement?

M.M.: Blood Axis is primarily a musical entity, although we utilize other
media in conjunction with sound: texts, images, photographs, etc.

HERETIC: Blood Axis expresses your ideology musically, and Storm
Productions through the printed medium. Do you have plans for venturing
into other areas?

M.M.: I agree that Blood Axis is a musical representation of my "ideology"
but Storm is not really the same thing. It is an umbrella for all of our
projects, and an imprint/distributor for the resulting products (and those
by others we respect). But just because I may publish a certain book
through Storm does not mean that it represents all of my own opinions.

HERETIC: When did your association with Boyd Rice and the Abraxas
Foundation begin? What have the two of you collaborated on?

M.M.: Although I've known of him for about a decade, I first got in touch
with Boyd in late 1988, when I finally tracked down his address. As a
result of much correspondence and conversation, we began to collaborate on
various things. He first asked me to help stage the Non shows in Japan in
the spring/summer of 1989. I helped work out the drumming parts as well as
designed and produced all the regalia banners, armbands, etc. After these
shows we worked together on an installation in Denver
later that year, at which time we decided to jointly move here together. We
then finished working on the Music, HauStinis and Misanthropy album with
Douglas P. (Death In June), which had been started in Japan. We also worked
on some other small musical projects such as Non, and Boyd contributed some
vocals to the first two Blood Axis tracks. During this time we were working
on Wake and getting Abraxas Foundation running, which in the end I
abandoned completely due to personal conflicts. We no longer work together
on anything.

HERETIC: What precisely is your relationship with the Church of Satan?

M.M.: I'm an active member.

HERETIC: You have described yourself as a "Fascist" in preference to
"Nazi/National Socialist", which you deem to be a more limiting term.
Explain the distinction. What is your conception of Fascism, and does it
adequately explain your worldview?

M.M.: I think the main problem of the National Socialists today is their
centering their entire worldview around a dead idol, namely Hitler. This
isn't to say there aren't valid ideas there, but I don't think a Hitler
cult is going to achieve anything or have any serious resonance outside of
a small band of fetishists. Fascism is less connected to a specific
personality, thus more openended. I wouldn't say it encompasses my
worldview, but it's a step in the right direction. However, I will saw that
I have no problem whatsoever with accepting the political implcations of
these ideas, even though I'm not involved in politics per se. One must
acknowledge that such ideas have consequences (often unpleasant ones)
beyond mere abstract rhetoric and metaphor. As they say, "It comes with the
territory."

HERETIC: How do you see the relationship between your "Fascism" and "Blood
mystique" with Satanism and the Church of Satan, especially considering
some of the Libertarian elements in the latter?

M.M.: I see no incompatibility with our interests and those of the Church
of Satan. In fact, the leaders of the organization have all been very
enthusiastic towards our activities and output. As for the libertarianism,
I have no sympathy for it. Likewise, the Church of Satan's leadership
appears to be less and less tolerant of these types exerting undue
influence.

HERETIC: Does your conception of "Fascism" embrace "racism"? If so, how
does this relate to Satanism and the Church of Satan which include those of
many races?

M.M.: Any honest, thinking person will admit that race affects reality. I
am certainly racially aware, and my feelings and experiences are confirmed
on a daily basis. Most all the Satanists I'm in contact with, being
realists, are very cognizant of racial issues. ft should be kept in mind
that one who takes race into account is not necessarily therefore a "Nazi"
or "supremacist" as a result.

HERETIC: Does your association with the ideas of people like James Mason
and Charles Manson include personal committment to their ideas, or do you
consider such associations more of strategic value in promoting anything
'heretical' to disrupt the status quo? For e.g., do you consider the "Left"
to be of any potential use as well?

M.M.: I'm committed to some of their ideas and others I can take or leave.
I think the gist of their beliefs are valid and important. There are
certain people on the far Left who are also worth cultivating and who can
respect radicalism of other varieties. Many of the people who have praised
Mason's Siege have nothing to do with the rightwing - in fact they despise
it. This is as it should be.

HERETIC: What do you see as being the primary obstacles to the emergence of
the type of society you wish to see?

M.M.: The primary and farreaching obstacles are the doctrines of falsehood
which currently hold so many in thrall. The most widespread of these are
equalitarianism and humanitarianism. If these concepts wereremoved from the
equation, the outcome of everday life would be entirely different.

HERETIC: Where do you see the direction of the USA, and the West generally,
heading? M.M.: Towards utter degeneration and disintegration. The USA just
happens to be leading the way, but I doubt the rest of the western world is
far behind.

HERETIC: What methods do you consider most effective in bringing about a
New Order?

M.M.: Whatever methods instill a spark in the hearts and minds of others.
It has to be something more substantial and tangible than mere simplistic
propaganda, a fact that most radical groups (both Left and Right) appear
utterly unable to comprehend. One thing I find curious is how many
individuals and groups claim to be fighting to preserve a certain culture.
By definition a preservable culture would have to be an already living,
existing one. For a culture to be living, it must be dynamic and evolving.
Culture is a difficult concept to put a finger on, but it is to a large
extent founded upon cultural artifacts. The vast majority of those who go
on about defending and preserving culturefarethemselves completely unable
to contribute anything tangible to its fundamental basis. This is what we
are attempting to do.

HERETIC: Do you see the dynamics of history as being cyclic? Can we expect
a literal "Ragnarok"?

M.M.: Yes, I see most all aspects of life as organic, and therefore cyclic.
As far as I can tell, Ragnarok is occurring right now, all around us. Revel
in it, for much can be accomplished in such surroundings. Everything is
permitted.

HERETIC: What options would you recommend as being the most effective for
young activists to pursue?

M.M.: Utilize the talents you inherently possess, and don't waste your time
on diversions that produce flawed products. Follow your instincts and
investigate your own heritage, with a view towards contributing to its
continuance. There are myriad options available for effectively doing this.

HERETIC: What organizations, etc. do you consider the most valuable in
forwarding at least some part of
your ideology?

M.M.: There are really too many to mention here. I think we demonstrate our
endorsements by who we associate and collaborate with, the publications I
contribute to, and so forth.

HERETIC: Do you plan to publish a periodical, or perhaps regularize Wake?

M.M.: I've got far too much to do at present without starting up a
magazine! As for Wake, as I stated, I have no involvement with it anymore.
I did alot of work on the initial one, most of which was unused at the last
minute or went uncredited. That was Boyd's decision, but I think the
publication suffered as a result. Judging from recent comments he made, I
have the impression there won't be any further issues. Again, it's fully
out of my hands, so I can't make any definite comments.

HERETIC: Given your association with the Church of Satan, do you consider
the use of esoteric methods such as ritual realistic options?

M.M.: If they work.

HERETIC: What new ventures can we expect from you? Can you elaborate yet on
any new alliances that might be forming?

M.M.: The main plans for Storm are to slowly re-orient it toward releasing
music on a regular basis. We do still plan to publish various texts, but
these will be sporadically done when time and finances allow. We should be
putting out some of the Cthulhu Records (Germany) CD's in licensed editions
in the USA (including the now outof-print Lamp of the Invisible Light). We
have also just finished the CD mastering for an album called Fire of Life
by the late 60's/early 70's group Changes, who had connections to the
Process Church of Final Judgement. This should be released in the next six
months. We will also be releasing a 7" of electronic fascist compositions
by t-he group Republic, which were recorded in 1982. We plan to release a
7" by David E. Williams, as well as CDs by Peter Gilmore and possibly the
music of the Iron Guard. In the next two months, Blood Axis will record its
first proper album, to be titled The Gospel of Inhumanity. If all goes
well, this will see simultaneous release in the USA (on Storm) and Europe.
These are just a few of our projects. We form new alliances constantly...
In closing, thankyou for the interest you have shown in our work, and for
the thoughtful and forthright questions. We ask all interested persons to
get in touch with us directly. For more information send one IRC to:

Blood Axis c/o Storm
P.O. Box 18009, Denver, Co. USA 80218.

"He who lives awake will never die."

the heretic:
realist publications, box 38-262, petone wellington new zealand.

..................................................................
waking dream:  the december homepage and other dark links
http://www.bway.net/~wkgdream




Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:56:08 -0500
From: wkgdream@bway.net (waking dream)
Subject: music and ideology (was Re: Nazis)


jamie blackman wrote:

>it takes very little imagination to figure out the intent of a record
>label that sees fit to distribute the work of such obvious Nazis as
>Skrewdriver and Michael Moynihan

true, but resistance could just as easily sell death in june, above the
ruins, boyd rice, even pantera.  does that automatically make the artists
like those who buy and sell their music?  these are all artists that others
have chosen to read such associations into.  i am not saying those
associations are not there.  what is not always clear is the intent behind
them, and for the most part i don't care to divine that while considering
musical purchases.

>Farm aid and friends were shows designed to raise money to _help_ people in
>need, so mentioning them in the same breath as a neo-nazi record label is
>hardly appropos....

it is in my view.  i am saying genarally overt politics in music turns me
right off (and others on this list, who expect the old nazi discussion to
come up a few times a year).  besides, those events tended to overshadow
the very charities they were allegedly drawing attention to, and became a
trend for pop stars to display their generosity and gain more popularity.

>I was simply protesting the fact that the only
>person who said a word about the fact that this man was a Nazi was
>Mike...

mike's post did not say moynihan was a nazi.  it said:

>Note that Resistance Records is owned by neo-Nazis who use their money to
>fund hate groups. You should think twice before sending them money.

again the "guilt by association" thing. the cd is manufactured/released by
cthulhu in germany and michael's own storm label here.  resistance is a
distributor.  distributors sell music.  the more places an artist/record
company has cd's, the more chances someone will buy it.  obviously you are
making a moral call by judging moynihan's decision to let them carry it.

as for mike being the only one to say anything, those of us who have been
on the list for a while, (and wsd fans for much longer), are somewhat used
to this thread, and i think we generally try to keep it from dominating the
list.  i am used to hearing "i heard death in june are nazis!" a lot from
the gothic/industrial crowd in this city.

>I thought it appropriate to  continue this string --  and the
>"discussion" that I was referring to was of Moynihan and his work. If
>you  did not think that anyone was discussing him, than you have missed a
>hell of a lot of posts indeed.
>
recently i posted the heretic interview, which got a few short responses.
then someone forwarded the resistance review, then mike responded, and now
this.  i don't recall any other recent discussion of michael moynihan or
his music.

[in reference to something is coming, jb wrote:]
>In either case, he made the record and could have pocketed the money. He
>chose not to -- that is worthy of praise

i fully agree, i was just correcting a few details.

>Who the hell ever said that adolescent views and actions could only be
>made and held by teenagers?

my point is that douglas continues to display his interest in referencing
words and symbols associated with the nazi period, yet you accept his work
for what it is rather than the assumptions you could make.  this should
apply to every artist.

>if one read your comments above as applied to another religion (for
>example the "neopagan" wicca), they would be looked
>> upon as completely rude and unacceptable.
>
>I do not believe that there is any reason to make this sort of pointless
>speculation, as my comment referred to Satanism,

i know, that is my point.  it is simply because they are satanists that it
seems acceptable to say insulting things about them.  i don't care if their
feelings are hurt, i'm saying it's a double-standard.

>I hope that everyone understands that I meant none of this as a personal
>attack on anyone, it simply worries me that "Naziism" is a term so
>casually bandied about on this page. The Nazis killed upwards of seven
>million people -- never forget that when you hear someone espousing their
>ideologies as part of music, or art, or anything else for that matter.

>PS   I would like to add that I am very glad to see NSK-related
>posts, and I would love to correspond with anyone who would like to talk
>about Laibach.

rotflmao!

how are laibach any less an expression of those ideologies than blood axis
or death in june?  the same clue-spotting has been done with them.  "look
at their uniforms and imagery.  listen to the germanic voices, the
militaristic beats!  they're obviously fascists!"  the same grey area
applies here. laibach wears their nationalism proudly (and they do state
it), but that does not automatically make them racist, bigoted, or
genocidal.  give the same chance to other artists.

my point here is:  you can never know what the people whose music you
admire are *really* like. are you going to stop listening to every artist
you suspect or confirm has some extra-musical quality you dislike?   e.g.
now that douglas is officially out of the closet (in dark angel #20), will
all the homophobes burn their dij cd's?

i believe musicians (and others) can be influenced by certain aspects of
something and not others. in turn they should have the freedom to express
their own take on the subject.  e.g: i have read books by crowley (another
big world serpent influence!).  some words are inspiring and will no doubt
come out in my own work, others i completely disagree with.  i won't ignore
what i do like for fear of what i don't.


:reyn til runa:

d.
..................................................................
december and other dark links can be found at:
http://www.bway.net/~wkgdream




Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:34:37 -0500
From: wkgdream@bway.net (waking dream)
Subject: Re: Blood Axis and Nazis


>>
>> Note that Resistance Records is owned by neo-Nazis who use their money to
>> fund hate groups. You should think twice before sending them money.
>>
>> Mike


Jamie Blackman  spewed:
>
>This sort of thing really is not funny, or cute, or cool.

did anyone suggest that it was?  where are you getting this, and why jump
all over this topic?  all someone did was post a review of the cd, and then
someone else responded about the *alleged* activities of resistance
records.  true, i wouldn't buy the stuff resistance sells, because i think
groups like skrewdriver are *awful*.

for the most part i dislike music that is so inherently tied to politics
and preaching of any kind.  e.g.: the whole mid-80's benefit trend (band
aid, live aid, farm aid, amnesty, human rights now!). they have been for
good causes and all that, but when that sort of thing is inseparable from
or overwhelms the music, it's tiresome.

>Moynihan has some obvious socialisation problems and probably got beaten
>up a lot in school --

speculation, as most of these types of ideological discussions are.  i
certainly don't see any "socialisation problems", he seems more of a social
person than i am, being involved in asatru conferences and such.

this does not make him the angst-ridden voice of a
>new generation, or the stalwart upholder of the Ubermensch ideal. It
>makes him a fucking NAZI. In case any of you missed history class in high
>school, the Nazis were a brutal bunch of genocidal lowbrow evil
>motherfuckers. They were not cool, they were not right, they were not
>hip, and they certainly deserve nothing but our contempt and our scorn.
>The fact that someone out there seems to think that this sort of
>behaviour is desirable, worthy of discussion, or even tolerable makes me
>wonder who  the hell I'm corresponding with here.
>
>And yes, I am aware of Boyd Rice's obsessions and Douglas P.'s disavowed
>former views.

i can deal with boyd's statements because:

1. i do not share his exact worldview, but the things he says i sometimes agree
        with.  as i have said before, when people get in your way and fuck with
        you, who hasn't had the kind of thoughts he expresses?
2. he is not stupid.
3. his cd's contain many other elements worthy of attention, it's not a
        political spoken word affair.

douglas' "disavowed former views"?  when has douglas ever declared his
actual views, much less disavowed them?  you may be confusing him with tony
(the post-dij, pre-sol 'above the ruins' period and his alleged
affiliations at the time).

>Discuss what you like, it is a free internet (governmental regulations to
>the contrary notwithstanding) based in a free nation with freedom of
>speech (theoretically), but this sort of thing could easily be moved to
>the alt.compulsivemasturbators.nazi.assholes newsgroup.

again, unless i missed a whole bunch of posts, i don't see anyone
"discussing" this but you.  we were talking about music.

>And in any case,
>the 20000 quid that DIJ has donated to relief for Croatians injured
>fighting the genocidal forces of Serbia exonerates him for any adolescent
>stupidity, in my book.

the money was generated from the sales of the album 'something is coming'.
being a recording of a 2-man live show and some radio sessions, cost him
very little i assume.  not a donation straight out of his pocket.  also,
the money goes to a specific center in croatia which is devoted to helping
soldiers and civilians who have lost limbs in the conflict.

actually, if you read 'misery and purity', douglas' (and tony's) adolescent
years were spent playing lots of *anti-nazi* rallies in crisis.  as far as
i can tell, the whole fascist obsession was not expressed until death in
june was formed in 1981, by which time douglas was beyond a teeenager.

>And don't even get me started on Satanism. Far from being the religion of
>the strong, or the realist, it is a pathetic, stupid bunch of idiotic
>drivel which should ideally only appeal to friendless pimply teenaged
>metalheads. (Not so neopaganism, just for the record)
>In closing, I would simply like to say that I am very proud of my Nordic
>and Celtic heritage, but that certainly will not stop me from recognising
>the importance and desirability of cultural diversity,

from what i know of the various forms of satanism practiced, i'm not fond
of it either, but as you say..."cultural diversity".  that means accepting
the satanists as well.  if one read your comments above as applied to
another religion (for example the "neopagan" wicca), they would be looked
upon as completely rude and unacceptable.  it is ridiculous to dump
everything on a few unpopular groups, that is the tactic of politicians.
it is also the same thing those "hate groups" do to minorities they
dislike.

>and the ultimate
>stupidity of any genocidal worldview.

>*terminate*

a humorous dichotomy there, don't you think?  saying you're against
genocide and then using the word "terminate" to end your post...

to attempt to end this on a positive and musical note, i just received
blood axis: the gospel of inhumanity (from michael moynihan, not resistance
btw), and i think it's brilliant.  it stands stylistically alongside
late-80's laibach, death in june, autopsia, but has its own sound.   i may
post a more complete review in the future.


:reyn til runa:

d.
..................................................................
december and other dark links can be found at:
http://www.bway.net/~wkgdream



Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:04:45 -0500
From: wkgdream@bway.net (waking dream)
Subject: art + ideology/NSK/ba/dij


i hypothesised:

>> how are laibach any less an expression of those ideologies than blood axis
>> or death in june?  the same clue-spotting has been done with them.  "look
>> at their uniforms and imagery.  listen to the germanic voices, the
>> militaristic beats!  they're obviously fascists!"  the same grey area
>> applies here. laibach wears their nationalism proudly (and they do state
>> it),

Peter Werner  wrote:

>This interpretation of Laibach as "nationalist" seems to be taking them a
>little too literally.
[deleted interpretation of nsk ideals etc]

i was pointing out that it seems ironic to me to end the post with a
pro-laibach sentence, when they use the same sort of imagery and have been
accused of the same things.  i do not believe those things.

>As for Michael
>Moynihan, when he stated in the interview posted here that he was indeed a
>fascist with Nazi sympathies, I see no reason not to take him quite
>literally, hence my attitude toward his work is going to be very different
>than my attitude toward that of NSK.

moynihan has also stated that he forms associations with various groups or
people as a matter of convenience at a given time, does not necessarily
subscribe to all their views, and may terminate the association when it's
no longer beneficial.  this may seem like waffling or a deliberate
ambiguity on his part, but as i said the same ambiguity exists in
laibach/nsk and death in june.  here you and i differ, since i take them
all on the same level: an artistic one.

>> but that does not automatically make them racist, bigoted, or genocidal.
>
>This interpretation of various forms of neo-fascism has always bugged me
>quite a bit; is totalitarianism redeemed if it isn't racist or is this just
>a way of making it sound more politically correct and hence more palatable?

as you mentioned, the nsk book talks about a "global state", a state of
mind rather than geographical. i don't see the exclusion or suppression of
other political parties or opinions, which i understand as the definition
of totalitarianism.

to bring this more on-topic, in the latest dark angel (#20), douglas p. says:

"like black americans who proudly proclaim the virtues of being
afro-centric, i consider myself euro-centric...choosing one thing over
another automatically discriminates against those left on the shelf...i
demand the same amount of respect for my culture as is demanded from me for
others."

i understand this is douglas' viewpoint and not necessarily laibach's or
moynihan's.  i'm merely saying that it is *possible* to have such an
aesthetic or attitude and not be totalitarian.  it seems to me that a
totalitarian view would not be so, well, egalitarian ("..same amount...").
there's a difference between preference and prejudice.  does this make it
more "palatable"?  to me, yes.  it shows tolerance.  the whole problem with
totalitarianism and nazism is they not only refuse to see other views, they
desire to wipe them out.  no one shoulld be wiped out or suppressed for
their ideas, not even those we disagree with.

i certainly disagree with some of nsk's theories ("the individual does not
speak; the organisation does"), but again this doesn't necessarily preclude
my enjoyment of laibach's music or the aesthetics of the accompanying art.

:reyn til runa:

d.
..................................................................
december and other dark links can be found at:
http://www.bway.net/~wkgdream







Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:51:46 +0100
Message-Id: <199501280851.AA03179@banverket.se>
From: nordere@hk.banverket.se (Erik Norder/BV/HK/SDA)
To: STORMBOOKS@aol.com, wsd-l@hmc.edu
Subject: Above the Ruins (note from Tony)



I'm sending this note on behalf of Tony Wakeford. Tony is on CompuServe and
will eventually have a full Internet address as well. You're welcome to reply
care of me until then...

 E.

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  *    <<>>               784 34 Borlange                 |        *
  */\    /v\                 SWEDEN                          |     /\ *
  *\/6  / v \       E-Mail:  nordere@banverket.hk.se       z-B-z   \/6*
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---------------------8<---------------------------8<---------------------------

I just thought I would like to reply to Michael's message on the Internet. This
is perhaps rather bad of me as Micheal obvously see's himself as an expert on my
history and on what I think!!!!
Yes, I have always prefered not to talk about ATR mainly because it has come to
be associated with  organisations and beliefs I do not feel I have anything in
common with. Although the ideas I had when the recording was made are not the
same as I hold now there is nothing on the recording I am ashamed of. What I
have not wanted to be conected to are the idiots who have bootlegged and sold it
and made money out of it down the years.

What I do beleive in (if anything at all), I have made clear in interviews and
in my fab book. What I have said and written IS what I think. I do not have any
hidden agenda. I do not see any contridictions in anything I have said or
written in Sol. What I say and beleive HAS undergone some change to what I
thought around 11 YEARS ago when the ATR recording was made. I am happy to admit
that. I must say I am a little surprized that Michael is privy to one whole side
of my personality. I never knew we were so close! Of course every one is
entitled to there opinion and after all mine is just one amongst many. How ever
I feel I may know just a little more about my past,my  feelings not to mention
my own personality.

Tony Wakeford   


On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 STORMBOOKS@aol.com (Michael Moynihan) wrote:

> To answer the question on why Tony has consistently denied ever even hearing
> of a band called "Above the Ruins" (which is ludicrous as anyone who's heard
> the material can instantly recognize both his voice as well as his trademark
> lyrical/songwriting style), it is simply for the fact that the band was
> flagrantly fascist-orientated. It was connected to the National Front very
> closely, as a cursory view of the lyric book they published will immediately
> reveal. They also received write-ups in neo-fascist political journals as
> well. 
> I must say it is a bit odd that WS is now re-releasing (obviously with Tony's
> consent) this material, since Wakeford has verbally denied it's mere
> existence on numerous occasions, not to mention in the "official"
> discographies. 
> If Tony's outlook/activities have been described by S. Home as totally
> lacking self-contradiction, then the guy sounds like he's obviously not been
> privy to one whole side of Tony's personality. 
> Frankly, I like Tony immensely and appreciate his work, but I see point in
> covering up the past or denying one's feelings.
> It appears a lot of people have a problem with such political orientations,
> which is their own business, but it should take a lot of ignorance/naivety to
> convince yourself that releases like "Above the Ruins" are innocent in this
> regard. 
> I'll be interested to see how Tony handles questions about this miraculously
> re-discovered, previously-thought-lost bit of his tainted past....
> Regards,
> Michael Moynihan 
> 


From: STORMBOOKS@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 19:54:45 -0500
Message-Id: <950128195444_2940443@aol.com>
To: wsd-l@hmc.edu
Subject: Re: Above the Ruins (note from Tony)


A final clarification on my commentary regarding the controversial Above the
Ruins:
It was NEVER my intention to claim to speak for Tony Wakeford, nor to claim
any great insight into his past, present or future thoughts. I don't think I
implied any such insight in what I said previously.
My only reason for mentioning anything about the album was due to the fact it
was being discussed and analyzed by people who had clearly never heard it.
Because I do have a copy of the record, as well as the lyrics, I felt
qualified to comment on what it contains, rather than let folks continue with
unfounded speculations. 
Undoubtedly Tony's feelings and opinions have changed over the years, and I'm
sure "AtR" doesn't accurately reflect his current worldview. However, as I
said, I would much rather see someone say they had done something, even if
they now felt it had been a mistake, than to deny it ever happened at all.
With that in mind, I will freely admit that my own opinions are probably far
more suspect than Herr Wakeford's, and if anyone should be raked over the
coals for fascistic leanings, no doubt I'm a far better candidate! 
In closing I think the real bottom line is that whether you sympathize with
the political content or not, the Above the Ruins material is great, so I'm
happy to hear Tony say he's not ashamed of it. Irregardless of what lead to
its appearance on CD, I'm certain a lot of people will enjoy it.

-Michael Moynihan




From: PRIAPUS@DELPHI.COM
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 07:27:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Roehm wasn't killed in a day [long]

On Sat Apr 29 "blanchrd@wam.umd.edu"  "strannik" wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, JOANISSE,ROBERT PAUL,MR wrote:

>> I should have added this in when people were discussing the rome\roehm\
>> douglas p thing a while back. The original "roehm" was a high-ranking
>> SS commander who was removed and murdered after his homosexuality  was
>> revealed. If any of this is slightly wrong (its been awhile since i
>> first heard this story...) then don't hesitate to correct or qualify.
>> I just thought that might have to do with douglas p's name fixation\
>> use of nazi imagery\evasiveness about being gay (or not).

:        hmmm. this is an interesting interpretation. Earnst Rohem was the 
:closest man to Hitler in the years before 1938. Rohem wasnt killed 
:because of his homosexuality, though...it was because Hitler was rather 
:paranoid about people that were powerful in the Nazi government...but 
:that isnt really the point. Rohem was extravagantly gay (from what ive 
:heard) and he was SS...so maybe there is something there...

:strannik

The following material is from "The Pink Triangle" by Richard Plant,
in the chapter "The Roehm Affair".

     Roehm was made chief of the SA and went on to preside over its 
expansion, recruiting thousands of adoring, unsophisticated young men.
He kept their loyalty until the end.  According to his recollections--
and even his most venomous enemies within the Nazi Party never disputed
this--he never began a sexual relationship with anyone under his command.
Indeed, Roehm was thirty-seven years old when he had sex with another
man for the first time...
     For about one year, Hitler kept faith with his second-in-command.
When complaints about the blatantly open homosexual behavior of Roehm
and his henchmen continued to reach him, Hitler issued and offical
statement: "Some people expect SA commanders...to take decisions on these
maters, which belong purely to the private domain.  I reject this pre-
sumption catagorically....[The SA] is not an institute for the moral
education of genteel young ladies, but a formation of seasoned fighters.
The sole purpose of any inquiry must be to ascertain whether or not the
SA officer...is performing his official duties....His private life cannot
be an object of scrutiny unless it conflicts with basic principles of 
National Socalist ideology."....
     And until his 1933 takeover, Hitler had little choice but to rely
upon his SA captain.  Roehm's storm troopers had provided a spigot of
terror that Hitler had turned on and off as the occasion demanded.  The
SA had cleared a path to power.  By the end of 1933, Hitler had suc-
ceeded brilliantly:  most important government jobs had been filled by 
Nazi Parti members; the expulsion of non-Nazis from key positions in 
the judiciary, the civil service, and various bureaucracies proceeded
without complication.  Neither left-wing, moderate, nor conservative 
groups offered significant resistance.  Hitler had swept everything
before him.  Yet some internal problems persisted.  Among them, in 1934,
was one that Hitler did not wish to face:  what to do with Roehm and 
his Brown Shirts now that they were no longer needed...
     But Roehm kept trying to push his pet scheme:  the SA must 
incorporate the regular army into one powerful unified force, under
his command.  It was, he felt, the only sure means of guaranteeing
the purity of the Nazi Revolution.  At first the military had wel-
comed Roehm, since the SA had militarized thousands of men who, be-
cause of the 1918 treaties, could not join the regular ranks.  But
the high command had never countenanced the possibility that a coarse
homosexual Bavarian provincial should actually run the armed forces.
General Walther von Brauchitsch, one of Roehm's more outspoken critics,
remarked: "Re-armament is too serious and militarily important to be
left to hoodlums and homosexuals like Captain Roehm."...
     Above all, the Fuhrer needed a strong, devoted fighting machine.
He realized that the Reichswehr [regular army], not the SA, was its
natural nucleus.  Even before the death of the aged President von
Hindenburg, Hitler had made up his mind:  a new war would first subdue
the decadent West; then a crusade eastward would vanquish Russia and
conquer Europe.  To achieve these goals, Hitler had to appease the
Reichswehr officers, to induce them into accepting him unconditionally
as their leader.  And thus a bargain was struck:  in exchange for the
destruction of Roehm and the SA, the army would swear loyalty to 
Hitler....
     Himmler, together with Heydrich and Goring, used every oppor-
tunity and means to drive a wedge between Hitler and Roehm, even
going so far as to accuse Roehm, as Hitler's only serious potential
rival, of planning a coup against the Fuhrer....On the night of June
28 [1934], when Hitler flew to Munich, he was accompanied by his usual
entourage and a small cohort of SS officers.  He had alerted Adolf
Wagner, the Bavarian minister of the interor, to have the local SS
armed and ready....The SA, Hitler would explain lager, had been plan-
ning a putsch and had to be stopped by force....Once Hitler arrived
at the Munich "Brown House," he arrested the first two SA lieutenants
he met, and ordered Sepp Dietrich, the commander of his bodyguard
regiment, to round up all the SA men he could find and take them to
Stadelheim prison.  Then the Fuhrer's motorcade proceeded hurriedly
to the Pension Hanselbauer in the Bavarian countryside.  Without
warning, the SS troopers stormed the hotel, SA Lieutenant Edmund
Heines, a Nazi Party stalwart whom Hitler especially disliked, was
caught in bed with his young chauffer.  Heines was arrested on the
spot, handcuffed, and together with Roehm and five other leaders,
transported to Stadelheim....Throughout Germany, old scored were
settled.  In Munich, Hitler ordered the SA regulars to the "Brown
House," screaming that they were all "homosexual pigs," though he
well knew that only a few in Roehm's immediate entourage were homo-
sexual.  In Berlin, Goring greeted the stunned SA lieutenants with
abuse, also calling them "homosexual pigs."...
     Roehm had made it easy for hitler to act against him by so 
flagrantly flaunting his homosexuality.  His unapologetic behavior
had provided a convenient peg on which Hitler could hand a multitude
of sins.  But Roehm's sexual habits were a sideshow; they were never
the real cause of his downfall.  To be sure, in addition to the 
charge of treason, the homosexuality of some of the victims of the
purge was offered as justification for their deaths.  Homosexuality
within the SA was used by Hitler as a ploy so that he could pose as 
the moral leader of the Nazi Party and the Reich.  After the purge,
hitler had a directive ready:

     I expect all SA leaders to help preserve and strengthen the
     SA in its capacity as a pure and cleanly institution.  In
     particular, I should like every mother to be able to allow 
     her son to join the SA, [Nazi] Party, and Hitler Youth with-
     out the fear that he may become morally corrupted in their
     ranks.  I therefore require all SA commanders to take the
     utmost pains to ensure that offenses under Paragraph 175
     [a German law enacted in 1871 which states 'A male who 
     indulges in criminally indecent activities with another
     male or who allows himself to participate in such activities
     will be punished by jail'] are met by immediate expulsion
     of the culprit from the SA and the Party.  I want to see
     men as SA commanders, not ludicrous monkeys.