An amazingly random collection of articles from ye olde WSD-l, loosely connected with DIJ, Nazism and gay issues (some Cloud Zero articles thrown in for good measure). A much better collection is elsewhere on my page.

To: (Cloud Zero)
From: (Nancy Thuleen)
Subject: Re: Hello

Booti Quake, or crackboy, or jason (I think they're all the same) wrote:

   > I want to ask it here because rmi is getting more and more worthless.

Meaning it was different, at some point?  :)

   > I was just curious as to what would be a good first time purchase
   > for Death In June. In other words, what would be the best album
   > they have done.

Oh, goodness, how can you answer a question like that?  I mean, I'm not
saying ALL Death in June albums are wonderful, certainly there's a ranking,
but I can't recommend just ONE!  Eeeessh.  And without even knowing what
other music you like, apart from LPD of course?  Well, let's see.  I don't
have all of them ("only" eight!) but from those I do have, I can definitely
recommend "The Corn Years."  It's a nice sampling of their earlier
('86-'87) work, with mostly folk-ish songs interspersed with some more
experimental numbers (although I won't stand by "experimental" as the
operative word, really).  Besides, it has a few of my all-time favorite DiJ
tracks, such as "Europa: The Gates of Heaven" and "Break the Black Ice."
And Rose McDowell and John Balance both do guest vocals, *swoon*.

The "new" album (last year's, called "Rose Clouds of Holocaust") is also
*very* good, but incredibly ALL the same sound, no variation at all, and
therefore if you don't like the sound, you won't like anything on the
album.  "But What Ends When the Symbols Shatter?" is a bit more varied, but
arguably not as "good."  If you're not scared off by the Nazi imagery and
blatant Aryan quotes and gothic vocals, well, "The Guilty Have No Past" is
definitely a classic, but I'd hardly recommend it for the faint of heart --
same with "The Cathedral of Tears," which is even darker, if that's

Hope that helps ... if you could give a little more indication of what you
might be interested in, others might have more to suggest ...

- Nancy.
(who thinks that she's answering far too many questions these days.)

From: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:06:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Booring Nazis It is unfortunate. Some people cynically use this term to stop all discussion when confronted with new ideas that they find hard to digest. It is amazing. When the term "Nazi" is used to describe people as diverse as Patrick Buchannan, Blood Axis, Death in June, and indeed, even Sadam Hussein!! It has really become over used and meaningless. Unless, it is used as just a synonym for evil. In which case, Blood Axis, Death in June, and Boyd Rice would probably wear this term with pride.
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:15:17 -0500 From: (waking dream) Subject: blood axis interview in the heretic as promised, here is the scanned and (quickly) corrected interview from the heretic. i think we can safely say blood axis is on-topic, through michael's past connections with boyd rice and douglas pearce. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . from the heretic no.10, oct 1994 BLO0D AXIS AN INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL MOYNIHAN HERETIC: What were the formative influences on your ideology? M.M.: Tracing the formative influences is difficult. I don't believe I ever went through any sort of radical "transformation" or adopted a pre-ordained worldview. I was never completely at ease with most of my schoolmates and considered myself an outsider. I always had a natural inclination to pursue knowledge on my own, as well as an interest in music and culture, history, etc., that was far beyond most of the people I knew. I had a small core of friends who were in some ways similar, and were troublemakers of a sort, but who still were not aware of many of the things I involved myself in. At a young age I was interested in extreme politics - I subscribed to a revolutionary communist paper at age 14 or so, and not long after that I sent away for information from the NSDAP-AO. I can recall my mother complaining since my earliest years that I was completely intolerant towards others, and often my schoolteachers were paranoid that I was secretly organizing rebellions behind the scenes. But really, I can't think of any specific influences. Generally it's an ongoing process of one thing leading to another, and I'm pretty tenacious at tracking concepts down to either their origins and/or their logical conclusions. HERETIC: What were your involvements prior to Blood Axis and Storm Productions? M.M.: Before Blood Axis and Storm I had a project called Coup De Grace, which was a music group as well as a publisher/distributor. I recorded a few tapes and did one small tour of concerts in northern Europe in 1987. In 1988, at age 18, I published an edition of Nietzsche's Der Antichrist, illustrated by Trevor Brown.I was also briefly involved in a few other music qrouDs, and organized and played in the one European concert of the US techno-skin band Slave State, which took place in August of 1988. HERETIC: How did Blood Axis come about? What does the name itself imply? Was the "Axis" part of it chosen at least in part to imply Fascism? What's the background of its emblem the Gothic Cross, and why did you select that? What the significance of the Mithraic cult for Blood Axis? M.M.: Blood Axis came about as I wanted to create an entity that would more powerfully and specifically represent my beliefs and goals. It was formed in 1989, although the idea had been gestating for much longer than that. the name to me represents life itself: blood, violence, sex, heredity, and an undefinable mythic spiritual quality as well. Of course I was well aware of the fascist connotation of the word "axis", and accepted this willing. In choosing the symbol for the project, the kruckenkreuz seemed appropriate for many reasons. I wanted something simple and distinct, visually representing an axis or unity. Additionally, it contains other powerful symbols within its form: sunwheels revolving either direction, four Thor's hammers, etc. Of course the symbol also has Christian connections (although it's much older than that), which I think add another (not necessarily negative, in a pragmatic sense) element to its mythical resonance. The cult of Mithras was something I discovered while doing original research for Blood Axis. The more I read the more fascinated I became. The blood symbolism in Mithraism is especially strong, as is the pagan/anti-Christian foundation, and it can be related closely to something like Asatru (which I am also involved with), for both are native Indo-European warrior religions. HERETIC: Is Blood Axis intended solely as a music endeavour, or do you have plans for broadening it into, for e.g., a movement? M.M.: Blood Axis is primarily a musical entity, although we utilize other media in conjunction with sound: texts, images, photographs, etc. HERETIC: Blood Axis expresses your ideology musically, and Storm Productions through the printed medium. Do you have plans for venturing into other areas? M.M.: I agree that Blood Axis is a musical representation of my "ideology" but Storm is not really the same thing. It is an umbrella for all of our projects, and an imprint/distributor for the resulting products (and those by others we respect). But just because I may publish a certain book through Storm does not mean that it represents all of my own opinions. HERETIC: When did your association with Boyd Rice and the Abraxas Foundation begin? What have the two of you collaborated on? M.M.: Although I've known of him for about a decade, I first got in touch with Boyd in late 1988, when I finally tracked down his address. As a result of much correspondence and conversation, we began to collaborate on various things. He first asked me to help stage the Non shows in Japan in the spring/summer of 1989. I helped work out the drumming parts as well as designed and produced all the regalia banners, armbands, etc. After these shows we worked together on an installation in Denver later that year, at which time we decided to jointly move here together. We then finished working on the Music, HauStinis and Misanthropy album with Douglas P. (Death In June), which had been started in Japan. We also worked on some other small musical projects such as Non, and Boyd contributed some vocals to the first two Blood Axis tracks. During this time we were working on Wake and getting Abraxas Foundation running, which in the end I abandoned completely due to personal conflicts. We no longer work together on anything. HERETIC: What precisely is your relationship with the Church of Satan? M.M.: I'm an active member. HERETIC: You have described yourself as a "Fascist" in preference to "Nazi/National Socialist", which you deem to be a more limiting term. Explain the distinction. What is your conception of Fascism, and does it adequately explain your worldview? M.M.: I think the main problem of the National Socialists today is their centering their entire worldview around a dead idol, namely Hitler. This isn't to say there aren't valid ideas there, but I don't think a Hitler cult is going to achieve anything or have any serious resonance outside of a small band of fetishists. Fascism is less connected to a specific personality, thus more openended. I wouldn't say it encompasses my worldview, but it's a step in the right direction. However, I will saw that I have no problem whatsoever with accepting the political implcations of these ideas, even though I'm not involved in politics per se. One must acknowledge that such ideas have consequences (often unpleasant ones) beyond mere abstract rhetoric and metaphor. As they say, "It comes with the territory." HERETIC: How do you see the relationship between your "Fascism" and "Blood mystique" with Satanism and the Church of Satan, especially considering some of the Libertarian elements in the latter? M.M.: I see no incompatibility with our interests and those of the Church of Satan. In fact, the leaders of the organization have all been very enthusiastic towards our activities and output. As for the libertarianism, I have no sympathy for it. Likewise, the Church of Satan's leadership appears to be less and less tolerant of these types exerting undue influence. HERETIC: Does your conception of "Fascism" embrace "racism"? If so, how does this relate to Satanism and the Church of Satan which include those of many races? M.M.: Any honest, thinking person will admit that race affects reality. I am certainly racially aware, and my feelings and experiences are confirmed on a daily basis. Most all the Satanists I'm in contact with, being realists, are very cognizant of racial issues. ft should be kept in mind that one who takes race into account is not necessarily therefore a "Nazi" or "supremacist" as a result. HERETIC: Does your association with the ideas of people like James Mason and Charles Manson include personal committment to their ideas, or do you consider such associations more of strategic value in promoting anything 'heretical' to disrupt the status quo? For e.g., do you consider the "Left" to be of any potential use as well? M.M.: I'm committed to some of their ideas and others I can take or leave. I think the gist of their beliefs are valid and important. There are certain people on the far Left who are also worth cultivating and who can respect radicalism of other varieties. Many of the people who have praised Mason's Siege have nothing to do with the rightwing - in fact they despise it. This is as it should be. HERETIC: What do you see as being the primary obstacles to the emergence of the type of society you wish to see? M.M.: The primary and farreaching obstacles are the doctrines of falsehood which currently hold so many in thrall. The most widespread of these are equalitarianism and humanitarianism. If these concepts wereremoved from the equation, the outcome of everday life would be entirely different. HERETIC: Where do you see the direction of the USA, and the West generally, heading? M.M.: Towards utter degeneration and disintegration. The USA just happens to be leading the way, but I doubt the rest of the western world is far behind. HERETIC: What methods do you consider most effective in bringing about a New Order? M.M.: Whatever methods instill a spark in the hearts and minds of others. It has to be something more substantial and tangible than mere simplistic propaganda, a fact that most radical groups (both Left and Right) appear utterly unable to comprehend. One thing I find curious is how many individuals and groups claim to be fighting to preserve a certain culture. By definition a preservable culture would have to be an already living, existing one. For a culture to be living, it must be dynamic and evolving. Culture is a difficult concept to put a finger on, but it is to a large extent founded upon cultural artifacts. The vast majority of those who go on about defending and preserving culturefarethemselves completely unable to contribute anything tangible to its fundamental basis. This is what we are attempting to do. HERETIC: Do you see the dynamics of history as being cyclic? Can we expect a literal "Ragnarok"? M.M.: Yes, I see most all aspects of life as organic, and therefore cyclic. As far as I can tell, Ragnarok is occurring right now, all around us. Revel in it, for much can be accomplished in such surroundings. Everything is permitted. HERETIC: What options would you recommend as being the most effective for young activists to pursue? M.M.: Utilize the talents you inherently possess, and don't waste your time on diversions that produce flawed products. Follow your instincts and investigate your own heritage, with a view towards contributing to its continuance. There are myriad options available for effectively doing this. HERETIC: What organizations, etc. do you consider the most valuable in forwarding at least some part of your ideology? M.M.: There are really too many to mention here. I think we demonstrate our endorsements by who we associate and collaborate with, the publications I contribute to, and so forth. HERETIC: Do you plan to publish a periodical, or perhaps regularize Wake? M.M.: I've got far too much to do at present without starting up a magazine! As for Wake, as I stated, I have no involvement with it anymore. I did alot of work on the initial one, most of which was unused at the last minute or went uncredited. That was Boyd's decision, but I think the publication suffered as a result. Judging from recent comments he made, I have the impression there won't be any further issues. Again, it's fully out of my hands, so I can't make any definite comments. HERETIC: Given your association with the Church of Satan, do you consider the use of esoteric methods such as ritual realistic options? M.M.: If they work. HERETIC: What new ventures can we expect from you? Can you elaborate yet on any new alliances that might be forming? M.M.: The main plans for Storm are to slowly re-orient it toward releasing music on a regular basis. We do still plan to publish various texts, but these will be sporadically done when time and finances allow. We should be putting out some of the Cthulhu Records (Germany) CD's in licensed editions in the USA (including the now outof-print Lamp of the Invisible Light). We have also just finished the CD mastering for an album called Fire of Life by the late 60's/early 70's group Changes, who had connections to the Process Church of Final Judgement. This should be released in the next six months. We will also be releasing a 7" of electronic fascist compositions by t-he group Republic, which were recorded in 1982. We plan to release a 7" by David E. Williams, as well as CDs by Peter Gilmore and possibly the music of the Iron Guard. In the next two months, Blood Axis will record its first proper album, to be titled The Gospel of Inhumanity. If all goes well, this will see simultaneous release in the USA (on Storm) and Europe. These are just a few of our projects. We form new alliances constantly... In closing, thankyou for the interest you have shown in our work, and for the thoughtful and forthright questions. We ask all interested persons to get in touch with us directly. For more information send one IRC to: Blood Axis c/o Storm P.O. Box 18009, Denver, Co. USA 80218. "He who lives awake will never die." the heretic: realist publications, box 38-262, petone wellington new zealand. .................................................................. waking dream: the december homepage and other dark links
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:56:08 -0500 From: (waking dream) Subject: music and ideology (was Re: Nazis) jamie blackman wrote: >it takes very little imagination to figure out the intent of a record >label that sees fit to distribute the work of such obvious Nazis as >Skrewdriver and Michael Moynihan true, but resistance could just as easily sell death in june, above the ruins, boyd rice, even pantera. does that automatically make the artists like those who buy and sell their music? these are all artists that others have chosen to read such associations into. i am not saying those associations are not there. what is not always clear is the intent behind them, and for the most part i don't care to divine that while considering musical purchases. >Farm aid and friends were shows designed to raise money to _help_ people in >need, so mentioning them in the same breath as a neo-nazi record label is >hardly appropos.... it is in my view. i am saying genarally overt politics in music turns me right off (and others on this list, who expect the old nazi discussion to come up a few times a year). besides, those events tended to overshadow the very charities they were allegedly drawing attention to, and became a trend for pop stars to display their generosity and gain more popularity. >I was simply protesting the fact that the only >person who said a word about the fact that this man was a Nazi was >Mike... mike's post did not say moynihan was a nazi. it said: >Note that Resistance Records is owned by neo-Nazis who use their money to >fund hate groups. You should think twice before sending them money. again the "guilt by association" thing. the cd is manufactured/released by cthulhu in germany and michael's own storm label here. resistance is a distributor. distributors sell music. the more places an artist/record company has cd's, the more chances someone will buy it. obviously you are making a moral call by judging moynihan's decision to let them carry it. as for mike being the only one to say anything, those of us who have been on the list for a while, (and wsd fans for much longer), are somewhat used to this thread, and i think we generally try to keep it from dominating the list. i am used to hearing "i heard death in june are nazis!" a lot from the gothic/industrial crowd in this city. >I thought it appropriate to continue this string -- and the >"discussion" that I was referring to was of Moynihan and his work. If >you did not think that anyone was discussing him, than you have missed a >hell of a lot of posts indeed. > recently i posted the heretic interview, which got a few short responses. then someone forwarded the resistance review, then mike responded, and now this. i don't recall any other recent discussion of michael moynihan or his music. [in reference to something is coming, jb wrote:] >In either case, he made the record and could have pocketed the money. He >chose not to -- that is worthy of praise i fully agree, i was just correcting a few details. >Who the hell ever said that adolescent views and actions could only be >made and held by teenagers? my point is that douglas continues to display his interest in referencing words and symbols associated with the nazi period, yet you accept his work for what it is rather than the assumptions you could make. this should apply to every artist. >if one read your comments above as applied to another religion (for >example the "neopagan" wicca), they would be looked >> upon as completely rude and unacceptable. > >I do not believe that there is any reason to make this sort of pointless >speculation, as my comment referred to Satanism, i know, that is my point. it is simply because they are satanists that it seems acceptable to say insulting things about them. i don't care if their feelings are hurt, i'm saying it's a double-standard. >I hope that everyone understands that I meant none of this as a personal >attack on anyone, it simply worries me that "Naziism" is a term so >casually bandied about on this page. The Nazis killed upwards of seven >million people -- never forget that when you hear someone espousing their >ideologies as part of music, or art, or anything else for that matter. >PS I would like to add that I am very glad to see NSK-related >posts, and I would love to correspond with anyone who would like to talk >about Laibach. rotflmao! how are laibach any less an expression of those ideologies than blood axis or death in june? the same clue-spotting has been done with them. "look at their uniforms and imagery. listen to the germanic voices, the militaristic beats! they're obviously fascists!" the same grey area applies here. laibach wears their nationalism proudly (and they do state it), but that does not automatically make them racist, bigoted, or genocidal. give the same chance to other artists. my point here is: you can never know what the people whose music you admire are *really* like. are you going to stop listening to every artist you suspect or confirm has some extra-musical quality you dislike? e.g. now that douglas is officially out of the closet (in dark angel #20), will all the homophobes burn their dij cd's? i believe musicians (and others) can be influenced by certain aspects of something and not others. in turn they should have the freedom to express their own take on the subject. e.g: i have read books by crowley (another big world serpent influence!). some words are inspiring and will no doubt come out in my own work, others i completely disagree with. i won't ignore what i do like for fear of what i don't. :reyn til runa: d. .................................................................. december and other dark links can be found at:
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:34:37 -0500 From: (waking dream) Subject: Re: Blood Axis and Nazis >> >> Note that Resistance Records is owned by neo-Nazis who use their money to >> fund hate groups. You should think twice before sending them money. >> >> Mike Jamie Blackman spewed: > >This sort of thing really is not funny, or cute, or cool. did anyone suggest that it was? where are you getting this, and why jump all over this topic? all someone did was post a review of the cd, and then someone else responded about the *alleged* activities of resistance records. true, i wouldn't buy the stuff resistance sells, because i think groups like skrewdriver are *awful*. for the most part i dislike music that is so inherently tied to politics and preaching of any kind. e.g.: the whole mid-80's benefit trend (band aid, live aid, farm aid, amnesty, human rights now!). they have been for good causes and all that, but when that sort of thing is inseparable from or overwhelms the music, it's tiresome. >Moynihan has some obvious socialisation problems and probably got beaten >up a lot in school -- speculation, as most of these types of ideological discussions are. i certainly don't see any "socialisation problems", he seems more of a social person than i am, being involved in asatru conferences and such. this does not make him the angst-ridden voice of a >new generation, or the stalwart upholder of the Ubermensch ideal. It >makes him a fucking NAZI. In case any of you missed history class in high >school, the Nazis were a brutal bunch of genocidal lowbrow evil >motherfuckers. They were not cool, they were not right, they were not >hip, and they certainly deserve nothing but our contempt and our scorn. >The fact that someone out there seems to think that this sort of >behaviour is desirable, worthy of discussion, or even tolerable makes me >wonder who the hell I'm corresponding with here. > >And yes, I am aware of Boyd Rice's obsessions and Douglas P.'s disavowed >former views. i can deal with boyd's statements because: 1. i do not share his exact worldview, but the things he says i sometimes agree with. as i have said before, when people get in your way and fuck with you, who hasn't had the kind of thoughts he expresses? 2. he is not stupid. 3. his cd's contain many other elements worthy of attention, it's not a political spoken word affair. douglas' "disavowed former views"? when has douglas ever declared his actual views, much less disavowed them? you may be confusing him with tony (the post-dij, pre-sol 'above the ruins' period and his alleged affiliations at the time). >Discuss what you like, it is a free internet (governmental regulations to >the contrary notwithstanding) based in a free nation with freedom of >speech (theoretically), but this sort of thing could easily be moved to >the alt.compulsivemasturbators.nazi.assholes newsgroup. again, unless i missed a whole bunch of posts, i don't see anyone "discussing" this but you. we were talking about music. >And in any case, >the 20000 quid that DIJ has donated to relief for Croatians injured >fighting the genocidal forces of Serbia exonerates him for any adolescent >stupidity, in my book. the money was generated from the sales of the album 'something is coming'. being a recording of a 2-man live show and some radio sessions, cost him very little i assume. not a donation straight out of his pocket. also, the money goes to a specific center in croatia which is devoted to helping soldiers and civilians who have lost limbs in the conflict. actually, if you read 'misery and purity', douglas' (and tony's) adolescent years were spent playing lots of *anti-nazi* rallies in crisis. as far as i can tell, the whole fascist obsession was not expressed until death in june was formed in 1981, by which time douglas was beyond a teeenager. >And don't even get me started on Satanism. Far from being the religion of >the strong, or the realist, it is a pathetic, stupid bunch of idiotic >drivel which should ideally only appeal to friendless pimply teenaged >metalheads. (Not so neopaganism, just for the record) >In closing, I would simply like to say that I am very proud of my Nordic >and Celtic heritage, but that certainly will not stop me from recognising >the importance and desirability of cultural diversity, from what i know of the various forms of satanism practiced, i'm not fond of it either, but as you say..."cultural diversity". that means accepting the satanists as well. if one read your comments above as applied to another religion (for example the "neopagan" wicca), they would be looked upon as completely rude and unacceptable. it is ridiculous to dump everything on a few unpopular groups, that is the tactic of politicians. it is also the same thing those "hate groups" do to minorities they dislike. >and the ultimate >stupidity of any genocidal worldview. >*terminate* a humorous dichotomy there, don't you think? saying you're against genocide and then using the word "terminate" to end your post... to attempt to end this on a positive and musical note, i just received blood axis: the gospel of inhumanity (from michael moynihan, not resistance btw), and i think it's brilliant. it stands stylistically alongside late-80's laibach, death in june, autopsia, but has its own sound. i may post a more complete review in the future. :reyn til runa: d. .................................................................. december and other dark links can be found at:
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:04:45 -0500 From: (waking dream) Subject: art + ideology/NSK/ba/dij i hypothesised: >> how are laibach any less an expression of those ideologies than blood axis >> or death in june? the same clue-spotting has been done with them. "look >> at their uniforms and imagery. listen to the germanic voices, the >> militaristic beats! they're obviously fascists!" the same grey area >> applies here. laibach wears their nationalism proudly (and they do state >> it), Peter Werner wrote: >This interpretation of Laibach as "nationalist" seems to be taking them a >little too literally. [deleted interpretation of nsk ideals etc] i was pointing out that it seems ironic to me to end the post with a pro-laibach sentence, when they use the same sort of imagery and have been accused of the same things. i do not believe those things. >As for Michael >Moynihan, when he stated in the interview posted here that he was indeed a >fascist with Nazi sympathies, I see no reason not to take him quite >literally, hence my attitude toward his work is going to be very different >than my attitude toward that of NSK. moynihan has also stated that he forms associations with various groups or people as a matter of convenience at a given time, does not necessarily subscribe to all their views, and may terminate the association when it's no longer beneficial. this may seem like waffling or a deliberate ambiguity on his part, but as i said the same ambiguity exists in laibach/nsk and death in june. here you and i differ, since i take them all on the same level: an artistic one. >> but that does not automatically make them racist, bigoted, or genocidal. > >This interpretation of various forms of neo-fascism has always bugged me >quite a bit; is totalitarianism redeemed if it isn't racist or is this just >a way of making it sound more politically correct and hence more palatable? as you mentioned, the nsk book talks about a "global state", a state of mind rather than geographical. i don't see the exclusion or suppression of other political parties or opinions, which i understand as the definition of totalitarianism. to bring this more on-topic, in the latest dark angel (#20), douglas p. says: "like black americans who proudly proclaim the virtues of being afro-centric, i consider myself euro-centric...choosing one thing over another automatically discriminates against those left on the shelf...i demand the same amount of respect for my culture as is demanded from me for others." i understand this is douglas' viewpoint and not necessarily laibach's or moynihan's. i'm merely saying that it is *possible* to have such an aesthetic or attitude and not be totalitarian. it seems to me that a totalitarian view would not be so, well, egalitarian ("..same amount..."). there's a difference between preference and prejudice. does this make it more "palatable"? to me, yes. it shows tolerance. the whole problem with totalitarianism and nazism is they not only refuse to see other views, they desire to wipe them out. no one shoulld be wiped out or suppressed for their ideas, not even those we disagree with. i certainly disagree with some of nsk's theories ("the individual does not speak; the organisation does"), but again this doesn't necessarily preclude my enjoyment of laibach's music or the aesthetics of the accompanying art. :reyn til runa: d. .................................................................. december and other dark links can be found at:

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:51:46 +0100 Message-Id: <> From: (Erik Norder/BV/HK/SDA) To:, Subject: Above the Ruins (note from Tony) I'm sending this note on behalf of Tony Wakeford. Tony is on CompuServe and will eventually have a full Internet address as well. You're welcome to reply care of me until then... E. ********************************************************************* */\ \ ^ / Address: Erik Norder 777 \ | / /\ * *\/6 \^/ Tunagatan 13 C \|/ \/6* * <<>> 784 34 Borlange | * */\ /v\ SWEDEN | /\ * *\/6 / v \ E-Mail: z-B-z \/6* ********************************************************************* ---------------------8<---------------------------8<--------------------------- I just thought I would like to reply to Michael's message on the Internet. This is perhaps rather bad of me as Micheal obvously see's himself as an expert on my history and on what I think!!!! Yes, I have always prefered not to talk about ATR mainly because it has come to be associated with organisations and beliefs I do not feel I have anything in common with. Although the ideas I had when the recording was made are not the same as I hold now there is nothing on the recording I am ashamed of. What I have not wanted to be conected to are the idiots who have bootlegged and sold it and made money out of it down the years. What I do beleive in (if anything at all), I have made clear in interviews and in my fab book. What I have said and written IS what I think. I do not have any hidden agenda. I do not see any contridictions in anything I have said or written in Sol. What I say and beleive HAS undergone some change to what I thought around 11 YEARS ago when the ATR recording was made. I am happy to admit that. I must say I am a little surprized that Michael is privy to one whole side of my personality. I never knew we were so close! Of course every one is entitled to there opinion and after all mine is just one amongst many. How ever I feel I may know just a little more about my past,my feelings not to mention my own personality. Tony Wakeford On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 (Michael Moynihan) wrote: > To answer the question on why Tony has consistently denied ever even hearing > of a band called "Above the Ruins" (which is ludicrous as anyone who's heard > the material can instantly recognize both his voice as well as his trademark > lyrical/songwriting style), it is simply for the fact that the band was > flagrantly fascist-orientated. It was connected to the National Front very > closely, as a cursory view of the lyric book they published will immediately > reveal. They also received write-ups in neo-fascist political journals as > well. > I must say it is a bit odd that WS is now re-releasing (obviously with Tony's > consent) this material, since Wakeford has verbally denied it's mere > existence on numerous occasions, not to mention in the "official" > discographies. > If Tony's outlook/activities have been described by S. Home as totally > lacking self-contradiction, then the guy sounds like he's obviously not been > privy to one whole side of Tony's personality. > Frankly, I like Tony immensely and appreciate his work, but I see point in > covering up the past or denying one's feelings. > It appears a lot of people have a problem with such political orientations, > which is their own business, but it should take a lot of ignorance/naivety to > convince yourself that releases like "Above the Ruins" are innocent in this > regard. > I'll be interested to see how Tony handles questions about this miraculously > re-discovered, previously-thought-lost bit of his tainted past.... > Regards, > Michael Moynihan > From: Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 19:54:45 -0500 Message-Id: <> To: Subject: Re: Above the Ruins (note from Tony) A final clarification on my commentary regarding the controversial Above the Ruins: It was NEVER my intention to claim to speak for Tony Wakeford, nor to claim any great insight into his past, present or future thoughts. I don't think I implied any such insight in what I said previously. My only reason for mentioning anything about the album was due to the fact it was being discussed and analyzed by people who had clearly never heard it. Because I do have a copy of the record, as well as the lyrics, I felt qualified to comment on what it contains, rather than let folks continue with unfounded speculations. Undoubtedly Tony's feelings and opinions have changed over the years, and I'm sure "AtR" doesn't accurately reflect his current worldview. However, as I said, I would much rather see someone say they had done something, even if they now felt it had been a mistake, than to deny it ever happened at all. With that in mind, I will freely admit that my own opinions are probably far more suspect than Herr Wakeford's, and if anyone should be raked over the coals for fascistic leanings, no doubt I'm a far better candidate! In closing I think the real bottom line is that whether you sympathize with the political content or not, the Above the Ruins material is great, so I'm happy to hear Tony say he's not ashamed of it. Irregardless of what lead to its appearance on CD, I'm certain a lot of people will enjoy it. -Michael Moynihan
From: PRIAPUS@DELPHI.COM Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 07:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Roehm wasn't killed in a day [long] On Sat Apr 29 "" "strannik" wrote: >On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, JOANISSE,ROBERT PAUL,MR wrote: >> I should have added this in when people were discussing the rome\roehm\ >> douglas p thing a while back. The original "roehm" was a high-ranking >> SS commander who was removed and murdered after his homosexuality was >> revealed. If any of this is slightly wrong (its been awhile since i >> first heard this story...) then don't hesitate to correct or qualify. >> I just thought that might have to do with douglas p's name fixation\ >> use of nazi imagery\evasiveness about being gay (or not). : hmmm. this is an interesting interpretation. Earnst Rohem was the :closest man to Hitler in the years before 1938. Rohem wasnt killed :because of his homosexuality, was because Hitler was rather :paranoid about people that were powerful in the Nazi government...but :that isnt really the point. Rohem was extravagantly gay (from what ive :heard) and he was maybe there is something there... :strannik The following material is from "The Pink Triangle" by Richard Plant, in the chapter "The Roehm Affair". Roehm was made chief of the SA and went on to preside over its expansion, recruiting thousands of adoring, unsophisticated young men. He kept their loyalty until the end. According to his recollections-- and even his most venomous enemies within the Nazi Party never disputed this--he never began a sexual relationship with anyone under his command. Indeed, Roehm was thirty-seven years old when he had sex with another man for the first time... For about one year, Hitler kept faith with his second-in-command. When complaints about the blatantly open homosexual behavior of Roehm and his henchmen continued to reach him, Hitler issued and offical statement: "Some people expect SA take decisions on these maters, which belong purely to the private domain. I reject this pre- sumption catagorically....[The SA] is not an institute for the moral education of genteel young ladies, but a formation of seasoned fighters. The sole purpose of any inquiry must be to ascertain whether or not the SA performing his official duties....His private life cannot be an object of scrutiny unless it conflicts with basic principles of National Socalist ideology.".... And until his 1933 takeover, Hitler had little choice but to rely upon his SA captain. Roehm's storm troopers had provided a spigot of terror that Hitler had turned on and off as the occasion demanded. The SA had cleared a path to power. By the end of 1933, Hitler had suc- ceeded brilliantly: most important government jobs had been filled by Nazi Parti members; the expulsion of non-Nazis from key positions in the judiciary, the civil service, and various bureaucracies proceeded without complication. Neither left-wing, moderate, nor conservative groups offered significant resistance. Hitler had swept everything before him. Yet some internal problems persisted. Among them, in 1934, was one that Hitler did not wish to face: what to do with Roehm and his Brown Shirts now that they were no longer needed... But Roehm kept trying to push his pet scheme: the SA must incorporate the regular army into one powerful unified force, under his command. It was, he felt, the only sure means of guaranteeing the purity of the Nazi Revolution. At first the military had wel- comed Roehm, since the SA had militarized thousands of men who, be- cause of the 1918 treaties, could not join the regular ranks. But the high command had never countenanced the possibility that a coarse homosexual Bavarian provincial should actually run the armed forces. General Walther von Brauchitsch, one of Roehm's more outspoken critics, remarked: "Re-armament is too serious and militarily important to be left to hoodlums and homosexuals like Captain Roehm."... Above all, the Fuhrer needed a strong, devoted fighting machine. He realized that the Reichswehr [regular army], not the SA, was its natural nucleus. Even before the death of the aged President von Hindenburg, Hitler had made up his mind: a new war would first subdue the decadent West; then a crusade eastward would vanquish Russia and conquer Europe. To achieve these goals, Hitler had to appease the Reichswehr officers, to induce them into accepting him unconditionally as their leader. And thus a bargain was struck: in exchange for the destruction of Roehm and the SA, the army would swear loyalty to Hitler.... Himmler, together with Heydrich and Goring, used every oppor- tunity and means to drive a wedge between Hitler and Roehm, even going so far as to accuse Roehm, as Hitler's only serious potential rival, of planning a coup against the Fuhrer....On the night of June 28 [1934], when Hitler flew to Munich, he was accompanied by his usual entourage and a small cohort of SS officers. He had alerted Adolf Wagner, the Bavarian minister of the interor, to have the local SS armed and ready....The SA, Hitler would explain lager, had been plan- ning a putsch and had to be stopped by force....Once Hitler arrived at the Munich "Brown House," he arrested the first two SA lieutenants he met, and ordered Sepp Dietrich, the commander of his bodyguard regiment, to round up all the SA men he could find and take them to Stadelheim prison. Then the Fuhrer's motorcade proceeded hurriedly to the Pension Hanselbauer in the Bavarian countryside. Without warning, the SS troopers stormed the hotel, SA Lieutenant Edmund Heines, a Nazi Party stalwart whom Hitler especially disliked, was caught in bed with his young chauffer. Heines was arrested on the spot, handcuffed, and together with Roehm and five other leaders, transported to Stadelheim....Throughout Germany, old scored were settled. In Munich, Hitler ordered the SA regulars to the "Brown House," screaming that they were all "homosexual pigs," though he well knew that only a few in Roehm's immediate entourage were homo- sexual. In Berlin, Goring greeted the stunned SA lieutenants with abuse, also calling them "homosexual pigs."... Roehm had made it easy for hitler to act against him by so flagrantly flaunting his homosexuality. His unapologetic behavior had provided a convenient peg on which Hitler could hand a multitude of sins. But Roehm's sexual habits were a sideshow; they were never the real cause of his downfall. To be sure, in addition to the charge of treason, the homosexuality of some of the victims of the purge was offered as justification for their deaths. Homosexuality within the SA was used by Hitler as a ploy so that he could pose as the moral leader of the Nazi Party and the Reich. After the purge, hitler had a directive ready: I expect all SA leaders to help preserve and strengthen the SA in its capacity as a pure and cleanly institution. In particular, I should like every mother to be able to allow her son to join the SA, [Nazi] Party, and Hitler Youth with- out the fear that he may become morally corrupted in their ranks. I therefore require all SA commanders to take the utmost pains to ensure that offenses under Paragraph 175 [a German law enacted in 1871 which states 'A male who indulges in criminally indecent activities with another male or who allows himself to participate in such activities will be punished by jail'] are met by immediate expulsion of the culprit from the SA and the Party. I want to see men as SA commanders, not ludicrous monkeys.